AIBU No going back to school I’m furious.

Furret

What people like grandad simply don’t understand is that teachers want children back at school. That very fact he simply dismisses.

What he further dismisses is that headteachers, teachers and their unions foremost concerns are safety. He tries to set himself up as some expert of H&S without even listening to those who know the very unique situations that exist in schools.

While he continues to argue from a position of ignorance I will just laugh and move on to more informed posts.

I laugh too because that's all I can do, but I wish it weren't so serious.

It now looks highly likely that the two metre rule will be scrapped and the bubbles will be abandoned.

Furret, I believe you demonstrate very clearly all that is wrong in the "Education Establishment" in your post @ 07:44 today when you speak of "ignorance" in anyone outside of that "Establishment" who dares to voice an opinion in regard to education.

Many can see the shortcomings within the schools of this nation that has been so prevalent throughout this crisis. However, the education profession wishes not to recognise those shortcomings and in that dismiss all who speak out on that as just "plain ignorant."

Is it, therefore, any wonder that frustration and anger are rapidly growing against all in the teaching profession as was acknowledged by the Education Secretary yesterday.

Ellianne

An informed post from the heart growstuff and I respect that. Thank you. I hope you keep healthy and that your tuition business can resume one day.

The point I was really trying to make is that people can work out for themselves what the local risk is. The government's bumblings and making rules up "on the hoof" are irrelevant.

Just because the "rules" state that people can do something doesn't mean it's safe to do it.

If a person wants to do something, s/he just needs to think for themselves that they are likely to be in contact with X number of people and whether strict social distancing is going to be possible.

If somebody is prepared to take that risk, it's fine, but they mustn't stick their head in the sand and pretend there is no risk.

Ellianne I am not sitting on any fence. As a scientist I am firmly grounded on the side that understands about transmission rates, viral load and other other considerations too complicated to expound on.

One difficulty that those who say teachers and the educational establishments are failing to ensure that children return to school is the parents. Parents are genuinely scared that their children are likely to bring the virus home from school. I heard a group of mothers at our local park yesterday who also were anxious about the fact school looked unwelcoming and rather scary for their children. I suspect they're over anxious on many fronts but that's how they feel. None of them were considering their children returning before September.

One of my grandchildren is back in reception. It's working well. A group of six children, with their own class teacher. They're all the children of key workers, which is another reason some parents are anxious. They feel the risks that key workers in care/nhs/ are more likely to be exposed to Covid so don't want their children mixing with them.

Ellianne

Sorry I'll try to make myself clearer Galaxy first thing in the morning. The last 5 weeks will have been planned around these activities and in pupils' minds this is the time when all these frivolitues should be happening. (To my mind they are the reward for all the hard slog.) Anyway, what I meant is that the time should now be profitably used introducing new topics or revisiting past learning, all of which will necessitate some speedy re planning and innovation from teachers. It should work.
And equally what are you talking about? Many schools ARE doing induction days and transition visits in small groups, and I do have a clear understanding of what is going on.

I can confirm that schools in my area are most certainly doing transition/induction days and making sure that all pupils are contacted, so that arrangements for catch-up, if appropriate, can be made. From observing the chat on Facebook groups, the vast majority of parents have been happy with the efforts schools have made to make sure their children have continued to make progress.

Ellianne very many schools have been carrying on with course work via online lessons certainly at secondary level. Primary pupils that I know have also continued their studies.

These all rely on good IT equipment and internet access which most homes have. But for those without much was promised but not delivered.

It is children from these disadvantaged homes that are missing out. Had this government delivered on its promises (surprise surprise) many of these children would have benefitted. Of course in the end it also comes down to how much parents were able and willing to engage with their children’s learning at home.

An informed post from the heart growstuff and I respect that. Thank you. I hope you keep healthy and that your tuition business can resume one day.

Yes Furret, and the safety issue is the area on which we fundamentally have different opinions. It clouds all our judgment, or alternatively highlights it.
There is risk involved in every choice we make. There would be consequences either way in re opening or not re opening schools. It just depends which side of the fence one is sitting on.

Ellianne I trust the KCL tracker to be as accurate as anything can be. It shows the number of people between the ages of 20 and 69 at any one time who are showing symptoms. It doesn't include people in care homes, so that's the actual percentage of people in the community showing symptoms. It can be assumed that a higher percentage are actually infected because some people don't ever have symptoms and others will be newly infected and not showing symptoms yet.

Therefore, if 0.5% of a population is showing symptoms, that equates to 1 in 200 people. If you go to a crowded area such as a market or school, where a large number of people is gathering, it's certain that somebody is infected. You don't know who it is, so you need to make sure you stay away from everybody. It could even be you who is asymptomatic, so you need to protect other people.

In Tameside and some other areas, just under 1 in 80 people is infected, so the chances are high that if you go to a high street or use public transport that somebody will be infected. You need to be especially careful about being in close contact with people.

The risk is lower, but still there even in small gatherings. You just don't know whether one of the people even in a group of six has been in contact with somebody who has been infected. Unless they've all been self-isolating for at least a week, the chances are quite high that somebody is infected and could pass the infection on to somebody else.

I think of it in those terms. As a diabetic with no family network to support me, I really don't want to catch anything. I stand a higher chance than average of dying or suffering bad side effects and I really don't want to do that. You can work out your own individual risk.

For me, I've calculated that the risk is just too high even if I were to walk down the road and go into shops. I won't be able to resume my full tutoring business (and earn money) until the risk is much lower than it currently is.

That's nothing to do with government "rules" but the situation which I can see for myself in my own area. It's quite obvious that the government sees infected and dead people as collateral - they're just statistics on a spreadsheet and I don't intend to become one of them. I'm extremely relieved I'm not still working as a teacher in schools because the chances I would be infected are extremely high.

Sorry I'll try to make myself clearer Galaxy first thing in the morning. The last 5 weeks will have been planned around these activities and in pupils' minds this is the time when all these frivolitues should be happening. (To my mind they are the reward for all the hard slog.) Anyway, what I meant is that the time should now be profitably used introducing new topics or revisiting past learning, all of which will necessitate some speedy re planning and innovation from teachers. It should work.
And equally what are you talking about? Many schools ARE doing induction days and transition visits in small groups, and I do have a clear understanding of what is going on.

Galaxy exactly

Ellianne there is no point in these remaining few weeks not because of what you dismiss as ‘frivolous’ (very Victorian) but rather for purely safety reason.

Despite Boris’ incoherent muttering it is quite simply better to wait a few weeks and see where the infection rate is going. Parents understand this.

If the virus seems to have loosened its hold, and the R &K rates continues to fall, then the situation by September might make a return to school more acceptable. We have a perfect study to watch when Scottish schools return in mid August.

What are you talking about? No one is having sports days or visits or productions, all transition visits are cancelled, sorry but that is a clear example of not understanding what is going on.

What people like grandad simply don’t understand is that teachers want children back at school. That very fact he simply dismisses.

What he further dismisses is that headteachers, teachers and their unions foremost concerns are safety. He tries to set himself up as some expert of H&S without even listening to those who know the very unique situations that exist in schools.

While he continues to argue from a position of ignorance I will just laugh and move on to more informed posts.

Grandad I do have a bit of an appreciation why some in education might think there is no point at this stage returning to school. The last weeks of the summer term are wind down time. I'm not saying teachers work less hard but the calendar is full of trips, visits, sports days, productions, concerts, prize giving, speech days, induction days etc. Just by counting the number of hours in a school day it is obvious that far less actual teaching can be achieved. My suggestion would be to scrap all those frivolities in the coming 5 weeks and to concentrate solely on the missed academic education, the essential stuff if you like.

Yes indeed if OP was so furious why no more comments from her/him?

Elegran Quote[ Re HSE lobbying the Government about the clash between abiding by their rules and opening all schools to all pupils - that is what the teaching unions have tried to do - only to be accused of making political capital out of the emergency]End Quote.

Elegran I feel you are not correct in the above as the teachers union wrote directly to Boris Johnson as Prime Minister in regard to the rules and regulations applicable the education.

They did not contact or attempt to directly involve the HSE, and in that there is a very large difference as I have laid out earlier in this thread.

Link to that communication can be found here:-
neu.org.uk/press-releases/school-opening

Ellianne, in regard to your post @14:11 yesterday, I feel that very many will agree with you that with five weeks remaining in this school term it is important to encourage as many parents as possible to have their children return to full education for that period.

However, even with the extra funding announced by the government, it would seem that many in the education establishment do not wish to witness such come about, stating it is not worth it at this stage. Undoubtedly that is the said establishment thinking, going, forward, of having an even longer summer break than their normal five or six weeks.

Elegran Quote [ One thing that appeared on Facebook was a video compilation of heavy goods vehicles coming to predictable grief because they hadn't followed health and safety precautions. I nearly posted a link, as an example of a sector whose members are not ALL paragons of virtu.] End Quote.

You are perfectly correct in what you state Elegran, but in those incidents is where our company really make our revenue.

We are often first called in to investigate the incident if it has happened inside a depot or distribution centre. That can be sad and harrowing on occasions when employees are involved, Then we are called to attend on an advisory basis all the disciplinary procedures and hearings that nearly always follow.

Then there is the inevitable full safety audit of the entire depot or distribution centre, followed by all the safety training or retraining that is required. When all the foregoing is taken in its entirety it is always a wonderful revenue earner.

I am surprised Elgran that being involved in education and all the problem solving it is said that brings about, you did not figure that out. Where else would you think much of our basic revenue income would come from.

It's Road Transport and distribution where accidents will happen no matter how much work be put into preventing them, and when they do it is earnings for us.

Reading up on this R rate business, yes there were 2 localised blips. The one in Weston I'd heard about but apparently in Taunton the testing machine was faulty and registered dozens of positive results erroneously until they switched to a different machine. Just shows how skewed everything is.
By the way, whilst we are all busy dissecting every scrap, where is the furious OP?

The R rate doesn't tell the whole story. The total number of people who have been infected in the South West is comparatively low, so any local outbreak will have a disproportionate effect on the R rate.

Parts of the country, including he North West, still have a high infection rate, so increases or decreases will have less of an overall effect on the R rate.

On the KCL Covid-19 tracker, Tameside (near Manchester) shows that 1.2% of people are showing symptoms and I've noticed that it's been over 1% for ages. North Devon is 0.1% and all of the South West has a low rate.

It has just been reported on the local news that the R rate for the South-west is back down again and is the lowest in England.

The high rate last week was perhaps due to a localised blip a week or more ago.

It seems to be extremely variable and perhaps is not a great guide until it remains consistently low.

I'll gladly let you take the top spot for the R rate Iam64 but this article in The Telegraph states otherwise.
"Sage has also published regional figures for the R number in England for the first time, with the South West having the highest range at 0.8 - 1.1."

Elliane,the structures you showed at a Manchester school are useful if it isn't raining. I live in the Manchester area and believe me, it rains, a lot. we bought a gazebo, identical to the structures you show, although of course, canvas tops. I had two friends round earlier this week, we sat under the gazebo, socially distanced. It was excellent until the rain really hit with its usual north west vigour - stair rods is the usual description. It came in round all four sides. We ran into the kitchen, where patio doors and windows were open. That isn't an option for school is it.
Also - your comment about the R rate being higher in the south than "up north" is far from the mark. Our rate is higher. That's one of the reasons our Mayor, Andy Burnham suggested decisions about managing the opening of shops/schools etc be delegated to the regions. Its certainly one of the key reasons young parents in our area are fearful of sending their children back to school. that, combined with the fact that their children will be returning to school with the children of key workers - who are all too often, working in the NHS/Care sector, therefore more likely to be exposed to the dreaded virus.

No Jane10 it's just a whim of mine, though your basement sounds good fun!
Talking of learning in strange places, I often marvel at how Anne Frank kept herself learning so much with so little to help her (other than her father). A bright child will do well wherever, whatever.

Ellianne I wasn't at a Steiner School just an ordinary one. I first 'cracked: long division in that nice basement lounge. It was a eureka moment!