Still mixing?

Blame those who voted for Brexit ! I'll have little sympathy for what we're about to face as regards staff shortages.
Menial tasks for the Brits ? You're joking. They won't get out of bed for less than £500 a week ! It's been a recognised thing for years now and many places will suffer, not only the NHS.

We RELY on foreign workers in most industries,. think about it. Patel will have a field day, the horrible individual and I hope everything backfires on her and all the Home Office officials.

Doesn't that just prove that hospitals have been operating at almost full capacity? There are currently over 20,000 people in hospital with Covid (not sure whether they've caught it in hospital or been diagnosed before being admitted), which is why other ops have been cancelled. Sadly, some of those people will die. Maybe I'm missing something here, but surely it's even more reason to make every effort to stop Covid infection.

I don’t think quite so many people have had to wait in ambulances though. And years of cost cutting in the NHS haven’t helped. Plus staff shortages.

Sadly, Isabel is quite right, MayBee70.

I've waited in one myself.

Not sure it was the most helpful thing to say at the moment though.

Firecracker123

Have you heard of the phrase “Empty vessels make the most noise”? It's a proverb that means that those with the least talent and knowledge usually speak the most, speak the loudest, and create the most fuss — whatever makes their presence felt the most. ?

Is that why you chose to call yourself Firecracker?

Isabel Oakshott (sp) said in Sky News that it’s quite normal for people to have to wait in ambulances for a bed to become available at this time of year. These are the sort of people (and newspapers) that we’re up against.

Have you heard of the phrase “Empty vessels make the most noise”? It's a proverb that means that those with the least talent and knowledge usually speak the most, speak the loudest, and create the most fuss — whatever makes their presence felt the most. ?

So please, do NOT come back and reply that this has nothing to do with Brexit. It has, 100%.

We have friends dying currently in the UK due to lack of staff and dire facilities. And so called Nightingale hospitals are being dismantled- just as we desperately need them.

Why do Nightingale Hospitals stand empty in the current crisis? Answer: there are not enough trained staff. Why? In part because many EU staff have either left or not been recruited feeling unwelcome in post-brexit UK. The number of nurses registering from overseas has fallen from 8,800 to 3,500. This has been driven by a fall in the number of EU nurse registrants which has dropped by 87% from 6,400 in 2016/17 to 800 in 2017/18.

biba And don't forget what Camus wrote about "La Peste":

"A pestilence isn't a thing made to man's measure; therefore we tell ourselves that pestilence is a mere bogy of the mind, a bad dream that will pass away. But it doesn't always pass away and, from one bad dream to another, it is men who pass away, and the humanists first of all, because they haven't taken their precautions. Our townsfolk were not more to blame than others; they forgot to be modest, that was all, and thought that everything still was possible for them; which presupposed that pestilences were impossible. They went on doing business, arranged for journeys, and formed views. How should they have given a thought to anything like plague, which rules out any future, cancels journeys, silences the exchange of views. They fancied themselves free, and no one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences.”

Greece was in a financial mess because it's in the Eurozone, has endemic problems with collecting taxes and had borrowed heavily from mainly German banks. The UK has its own sovereign currency and doesn't need to borrow from outsiders or align its currency with anything else.

M0nica

My thread was not about poverty but the effects of a major economic collapse. I know all the things that I mentioned happen already, but do you remember the state Greece was in after the financial crisis? I am thinking of poverty and deprivation on that scale. It makes our current poverty look like abundance.

I am merely suggesting that, as much as we need to undertake measures to reduce COVID and stop needless deaths, sometimes the cost of so doing can result in even more harm to people than the initial cause.

As I said a suggestion that needs to be kept in mind by the government when planning more extreme lockdowns and further extensive borrowing.

I'm sorry to have to say this again, but the UK doesn't need to borrow money. The Treasury doesn't need to repay any of the money the Bank of England has issued. I'm afraid you're sounding like Toby Young, who wrote in March:
"The cost of the economic bailout Rishi Sunack has proposed is too high. Spending that kind of money to extend the lives of a few hundred thousand mostly elderly people with underlying health problems by one or two years is a mistake."

I have been asked to share this from a medics fb group I am in(with consent):
From a frontline doctor paediatrician Dr J Machta ST4
"I'm writing this from the middle of one of the most ridiculous night shifts. I'm really trying to not be hyperbolic when I say this, but the health service, specifically north London hospitals, is past breaking point. I cannot fully explain how much trouble we are in.
All of our intensive care units are full. Barnet, Royal Free, UCLH, North Middlesex. All of our hospital beds are full. We have patients on the verge of death in A&E department because there's simply nowhere to put them if they need a ventilator. I'm not talking about the elderly and frail. I mean people in their 40s, 50s, 60s. We do not have the space in our hospitals nor the staff to look after any more patients. Not only covid patients, I mean anything.
Please don't mix with other households. Not even your families. Not your friends. Not your mum or your dad. Not even if "I only see them" or "they don't see anyone else". You may think people are being careful but the reality is there's no such thing. Any human contact will spread this virus, especially the new mutant strain.
People are complaining that cancer services and routine operations are being put on hold because of lockdown and covid. This is so patently ridiculous a complaint but I need to address it. Hospitals are so overwhelmed dealing with emergency care right now that it is impossible to deal with anything else. It's not only covid emergency care, it's everything. This is the direct result and the logical conclusion of allowing the virus to rampantly spread through out communities as we have done.
I'm sorry if this sounds preachy, but it needs to be said. We need to take more responsibility for our own health and that of the rest of our local communities. We need to do the right thing. That's all this comes down to - doing the right thing. Not seeing other people. Not going into other people's houses. Don't invite people over. Not even to the garden. If you must see people, do it two metres away with masks. Forget whatever rules the government has made for us - it's clear they have largely not been based on what needs to be done to drive down infections. Just act as if everyone you know has just tested positive and you need to avoid them like - quite literally - the plague.” .

My thread was not about poverty but the effects of a major economic collapse. I know all the things that I mentioned happen already, but do you remember the state Greece was in after the financial crisis? I am thinking of poverty and deprivation on that scale. It makes our current poverty look like abundance.

I am merely suggesting that, as much as we need to undertake measures to reduce COVID and stop needless deaths, sometimes the cost of so doing can result in even more harm to people than the initial cause.

As I said a suggestion that needs to be kept in mind by the government when planning more extreme lockdowns and further extensive borrowing.

Sorry MOnica. IMO this part of your post "Old people freezing to death in their homes because they cannot afford heating bills, rising infant and child mortality, unemployment and homelessness on an industrial scale" is absolute nonsense.

To an extent the above is already happening without Covid and, to be quite honest, I don't see much outrage about it on GN. Lockdowns aren't making it worse. If you want to start a thread about poverty, I'm happy to discuss it with you because I have very real experience, as the length this has all gone on has destroyed my business.

Restrictions are lasting longer than they should do because people won't comply, so I agree with Maw. If people really cared about others, they'd be prepared to put up with short term pain.

M0nica Mon 28-Dec-20 09:29:49
I think GrannyRose15 has a fair point to make and should not be dismissed out of hand. I am not totally in agreement with it, but I am concerned about the number of non-covid deaths that will be the inevitable concominant (sic) to the destruction of the economy to an extent that we are plunged into poverty and economic collapse in order to defeat COVID.

I don’t altogether disagree, M0nica but I still think it is alarmist and a diversion to describe old people freezing to death as an inevitable concomitant.
To use the analogy, this is like all-out war and IMO half measures will only prolong the agony and result in more deaths and an even more devastated economy.

I think GrannyRose15 has a fair point to make and should not be dismissed out of hand. I am not totally in agreement with it, but I am concerned about the number of non-covid deaths that will be the inevitable concominant to the destruction of the economy to an extent that we are plunged into poverty and economic collapse in order to defeat COVID.

Old people freezing to death in their homes because they cannot afford heating bills, rising infant and child mortality, unemployment and homelessness on an industrial scale.

Current shutdowns can only save us if vaccination is rolled out very quickly and anti-vaxxers care more for others than themselves.

heard a teacher ring the radio tonight. she sounded hoarse and breathless, had been in hosp with covid. otherwise fit and well, youngish, she still felt v rough and was wary about having to go back at begin term. she was v annoyed by the idea that it was only spreading among teens/college students. she taught 7-8 year olds and said it was rife in primary schools.

I’m sorry if you felt I was personally abusive Grannyrose15, I wouldn’t intentionally do that.

As long term NHS employee I see and hear about staff and younger patients dying and suffering long term effects from Covid all the time, and in large numbers, not just the odd one. The health service is completely overwhelmed where I live, and I find it very difficult to accept that some people are prepared to sacrifice the lives and futures of some members of society to benefit others, particularly when the impact of the vaccine is so close.

Casdon. You might have noticed that I have never been personally abusive to anyone; please give me the same respect. We are all entitled to our views.

Arto1s

In answer to the OP, absolutely YES!

Then why don’t you and GrannyRose15 just take your masks off and have a cosy cuppa in a corner, but please just keep your distance from the rest of the population.
Common sense or keep calm and carry on are neither recognised or particularly efficacious medical options in the face of a virus which is sweeping the world.

growstuff do you have any info I can read about the Barrington lot?
I confess I've given up reading too much about it lately.

GrannyRose15

Hetty58

GrannyRose15, wrong, wrong and wrong again. Your comments are a perfect illustration of the rarity of true 'common sense'.

'protecting the vulnerable as best we could and allowing them some self determination' - would be just like throwing them to the wolves!

We're still in the middle of a deadly pandemic, trying to minimise loss of life. Carrying on regardless is insane.

So you think businesses going to the wall, potentially 3 million unemployed, millions of children having their future jeopardised, elderly people being locked up without any visitors, women having to flee domestic abuse, and thousands of suicides are a good thing do you? And people call me stupid.
Much as I want to live, I know that my life isn't worth this much.
What I am trying to emphasise is that there is another way forward: one that is kinder, more compassionate and more democratic than the one we are following. And there are many many eminent scientists who agree with me. Lets get some perspective and we might just save the country.

And what's this alternative? Killing people? Nearly a million of them in the UK alone?

And who are these eminent scientists? If you mean the Great Barrington lot, they've been debunked by almost every single scientists who knows what he/she is talking about.

GrannyRose I can picture you now, you have your fingers in your ears and you are singing ‘La la la’ at the top of your voice. Meanwhile my local Health Board has 550 Covid + patients occupying beds, and no ITU capacity. You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Hetty58

GrannyRose15, wrong, wrong and wrong again. Your comments are a perfect illustration of the rarity of true 'common sense'.

'protecting the vulnerable as best we could and allowing them some self determination' - would be just like throwing them to the wolves!

We're still in the middle of a deadly pandemic, trying to minimise loss of life. Carrying on regardless is insane.

So you think businesses going to the wall, potentially 3 million unemployed, millions of children having their future jeopardised, elderly people being locked up without any visitors, women having to flee domestic abuse, and thousands of suicides are a good thing do you? And people call me stupid.
Much as I want to live, I know that my life isn't worth this much.
What I am trying to emphasise is that there is another way forward: one that is kinder, more compassionate and more democratic than the one we are following. And there are many many eminent scientists who agree with me. Lets get some perspective and we might just save the country.