For everyone who's bending the rules!

GrannyRose15
It was thought that children didn't get it, but they can, and they can spread it around. The schools have been open or closed according to the latest advice on this - and according to the pressing need for parents to be able to work without having to look after children at the same time. The children of key workers have always been in school.

The NHS did get breathing space, but then people went straight back to mingling again, and the virus took advantage of that and spread even further than predicted. Now a variant has been discoveredwhich spreads faster - so the NHS has even more people to look after all at the same time. These waves of patients couldn't be easily predicted because this is a new virus which no-one had any data on until it happened and the situation kept changing. A more decisive government might have been better at guessing, but they gave what they thought was the best advice at the time. Maybe we should have used a crystal ball and voted for whoever could have guessed right and made strong and unarguable rules, but we didn't.

The restrictions that we are being asked to follow all have end dates. They are not open ended. When the restriction comes to an end, the situation is reassessed and a further restriction added with its own definite end date. There are enough people in Parliament who appreciate the dangers of unlimited controls being put in place and are watching to make sure that it doesn't happen. What we, the public, have to do is to note that there actually IS an end date on each restriction, and to let out MPs know at once if we see that there isn't!

I do have some sympathy with some of what GrannyRose15 has said.

Its very clear that people don’t understand why the restrictions are what they are, and if you don’t understand, it makes them more difficult to follow. The message isn't getting across that we have a “budget” of interactions that we can deal with. So for a few months last autumn we could cope with schools being open because the level of infections that resulted in was manageable. But if we had added (for the sake of argument) meetings of up to 20 people for example, the level of infections would have been too high to manage. We were allowed to meet over Xmas, and that, along with the new variant, has sent cases sky-high for a while. Nothing is “safe”, and while people don’t understand that we are making trade-offs its only a matter of time until they “revolt”.

During the first lockdown I remember thinking, if we have to do this again, it’s a failure of government. And yet here we are.

As for the restrictions themselves, these are probably the toughest restrictions we have ever had on our freedoms. When were we last banned from travelling around the country? Feudal times maybe? And have we ever been banned from entering each other’s homes? I can’t think of a time. While most people understand why we are having to do it, we also must remember that government in this country is by consent, and we have to make sure that this level of restriction doesn’t last a second longer than it needs to.

Children do catch Covid and they do spread it.

Those who fought and died for freedom would have been the first to do the right thing. Don't spread such emotive nonsense!

Yes, most people know the country has weak leadership, which makes things up on the spot and bends to pressure from whackos, but use your brain and eyes and see that the only way the virus is being transmitted is through human interaction. It really isn't rocket science.

Go and do a fact check GrannyRose15 and come back when you have something sensible to say.

There is no choice. We have to give up some freedom to prevent more deaths.

Elegran

The problem is that we are not being given advice to follow, we are being coerced. And what we are being told to do doesn't make sense or follow any logic. Yes we have been told what measures are required to stop the spread, but these have been surrounded by such hysteria that it is hard to make any sense of what we are being told. It spreads less outside, it spreads less if you meet fewer people. So why are two people alone on a park bench told they are doing something wrong? We are told that children don't get the disease so why are schools closed? We are told it is a virus and yet for some reason it differs from all other viruses that have ever existed in its inability to confer any immunity. We were told that if we locked down in the spring it would give the NHS breathing space so they weren't overwhelmed. That makes sense once, but not three times.

And do you really think that it doesn't matter that we have willingly giving up freedoms that previous generations have fought and died for? Because I think it matters alot. If we can regain them soon and make sure we never give them up or have them taken away again it might not matter in the long run. My fear is that some of them are lost forever and we will all be poorer for it.

growstuff I was not comparing the COVID rules with the Nazis. Do please read my posts a bit more carefully.

Franbern said Reporting on neighbours, family, friends - absolutely horrifying in my opinion. The German Nazi party supported this sort of action, as did the Stasi.

She was referring narrowly and specifically to the systems in Germany and East Germany that encouraged people to report on their friends and family. A system that led inexorably to people being afraid to express any views that the governement did not agree with, for fear of intimidation arrest and worse. Not surprisingly the Nazis had a similar sytem in their country that worked equally well.

There is I think a very reasonable fear that habits of reporting on your neighbours, that seem so virtuous in times of pandemic could become systemised and common almost by default. The development of technology since the days of the Stasi and Nazis makes this very frightening and we have only to see how efficiently the Chinese have used all the wonders of technology available to them to watch every citizen to an almst 1984 level, to see that this is a path we should not put one foot on.

Whatever the Government did or didn't do, the general public do all have ears, eyes and brains. The disease spreads by way of droplets exhaled by those infected and breathed in by inhaled by those breathing in the exhaled air.

It is surely obvious to everyone that not breathing in air that has been breathed out by someone infected or someone possibly infected but not yet aware of it is the best way to avoid it. That means treating everyone you meet as a potential carrier.

Human rights, freedom, dictators, biased press pics of apparently crowded beaches, any buzz word or battle cry that gets taken up, are quite separate from the question of preventing the spread of this disease We have been told what spreads it and what measures will minimise the spread. We can carry out the measures and be part of the solution or refuse to carry them out and be part of the problem.
If we don't want to permanently lose any freedoms, we should be making sure that restrictions are temporary, not just ignoring them then saying they don't work..

GrannyRose15

Elegran

GrannyRose15 The first lockdown worked while it was happening but as soon as it was lifted people went bak yto living exactly as they had previously, which wasn't enough to keep the impetus that the lockdown had given us. There was a feeling that the worst was over and we could relax and get together again. It wasn't, and we couldn't.

The time while everyone was kept at home, watching TV or the internet, should have been filled with "Public Service Announcements" getting information rammed home about how we would all have to continue taking the utmost care not to spread the virus.

But look at the graphs for the summer. There was hardly any Covid about and deaths went right down. That in spite of the fact we were continually seeing pictures of crowded beaches. Why wasn't that time used to make proper arrangements for a winter surge? The government has put billions into this crisis and yet it can't get enough staff to run the Nightingale hospitals or provide a decent health service for those who don't have Covid. Could it be perhaps that there is something fundamentally wrong with healthcare in this country? Or are we to continue to believe that everything would be alright if only we all stayed at home and didn't get ill.

Of course the NHS is underfunded. That's no excuse not to do what we can to avoid stretching its resources even further - and incidentally taking responsibility for protecting our own health.

What do crowded beaches have to do with anything? Firstly, many of those pictures were taken from camera angles to make the beaches look more crowded. Secondly, being in the open air, especially on beach with a breeze, didn't provide ideal conditions for transmission of the virus.

A number of surveys have shown that most transmission takes place within family homes and educational settings.

M0nica

*growstuff*, No intention of patronising you, but usually there is a knee jerk reaction of horror if you refer to anything to do with the Nazis, that does not encompass the Holocaust - and with good reason - , so I felt I had to deal with that before I talked about their capacity for organisation, especially in keeping their finger on what was happening in the homes and workplaces of the ordinary German.

I still disagree with you profoundly.

I despise this government and some of the actions it's taken, such as suspending parliament and its actions on allowing charities and think tanks to speak out (about which nobody seems to give a stuff), but comparing Covid rules with either Nazism or the Stasi is offensive. Unfortunately, it's a common right-wing meme at the moment. Actions taken by a government to protect its citizens are not autocratic. Only people who are looking for an excuse to behave as they want could ever think that.

Elegran

GrannyRose15 The first lockdown worked while it was happening but as soon as it was lifted people went bak yto living exactly as they had previously, which wasn't enough to keep the impetus that the lockdown had given us. There was a feeling that the worst was over and we could relax and get together again. It wasn't, and we couldn't.

The time while everyone was kept at home, watching TV or the internet, should have been filled with "Public Service Announcements" getting information rammed home about how we would all have to continue taking the utmost care not to spread the virus.

But look at the graphs for the summer. There was hardly any Covid about and deaths went right down. That in spite of the fact we were continually seeing pictures of crowded beaches. Why wasn't that time used to make proper arrangements for a winter surge? The government has put billions into this crisis and yet it can't get enough staff to run the Nightingale hospitals or provide a decent health service for those who don't have Covid. Could it be perhaps that there is something fundamentally wrong with healthcare in this country? Or are we to continue to believe that everything would be alright if only we all stayed at home and didn't get ill.

growstuff this is a Scotland wide intranet, funded by the Scottish Govt, with billions spent on developing it.
As I said I was involved from the beginning, trialling it and training staff.
In my opinion, it did not live up to its expectations, nor was it fit for purpose. I spent longer troubleshooting than actually teaching.

growstuff, No intention of patronising you, but usually there is a knee jerk reaction of horror if you refer to anything to do with the Nazis, that does not encompass the Holocaust - and with good reason - , so I felt I had to deal with that before I talked about their capacity for organisation, especially in keeping their finger on what was happening in the homes and workplaces of the ordinary German.

Marydoll Essex tried a similar intranet with shared resources many years ago. However, here in England, so many schools became academised and the local authority no longer had the funds to fund it.

There are pros and cons to live online learning. It's a problem when there are a number of computer users in a household because they can't all access the live programmes at the same time.

Wheniwasyourage, I do know that there are hubs for the children of key workers. However, in my granddaughter's school, there is no live online learning, it's all preset work, which parents have to log onto on a daily basis and have to send a report of what tasks have been completed. There is no live interaction with staff. I would be surprised if all children were accessing this.
Of the five primary schools in this area, only one is open and that is functioning as a hub and as far as I am aware, there has been little uptake.

My friend's daughter, a primary teacher is working in the hub on a rota basis as well as preparing work at home.

What some are finding difficult is that a number of different passwords are needed to log onto each task.
Years ago, when I was involved in developing GLOW, the Scottish Educational Intranet, the hope was that it would be a single platform to access all online learning in the event of children not being able to go to school.

I have nothing but admiration for my ex colleagues.

Marydoll, schools in Scotland (at least primaries - not sure about secondaries) are definitely open for vulnerable and key workers' children. They are doing online learning for everyone else. All 3 of our teacher relations are on rotas for doing both.

Hope your recovery is progressing well.

BTW What first hand knowledge do you have of Chinese society?

M0nica

growstuff It is too easy to take such horror at the genocide and mass murders that characterised the Nazis, that you fail to see what lay underneath it all, not the ideology, but the routine organisation of the trivia of life that enabled them to build the empire of acceptable death.

The Stasi, operated the same way and once you start encouraging and praising the community benefits of those willing to keep an eye on their neighbours and report their every transgression, you are preparing a society to accept an organisation like the Stasi, and eventually a society like the Chinese now have and the reality of George Orwell's 1984.

What do I fail to see? Have you read diaries, letters and newspaper articles in German from the Nazi and DDR periods?

Don't patronise me.

I dislike more than most what this government has done since it's come to office, but Covid restrictions really can't be compared with those imposed by the Nazis and East German governments. It's an insult to those who suffered.

Haven't some people always kept an eye on their neighbours? I have been surprised about how much mine know about my movements and have asked where I have been (pre-covid as I go nowhere now.)
I don't think many will actually report people for what they see as breaking the rules they will just feel aggrieved and do nothing. I think in general the British are fair minded and will give people the benefit of the doubt before resorting to reporting them.

Yes- kids carry it but often don't get sick themselves so they really shouldn't be out in the midst of a surge in cases. I feel sorry for the teachers who are putting their lives at risk.

Totally agree with you nanna8. They’re not called ‘the cute carriers’ for nothing!

growstuff It is too easy to take such horror at the genocide and mass murders that characterised the Nazis, that you fail to see what lay underneath it all, not the ideology, but the routine organisation of the trivia of life that enabled them to build the empire of acceptable death.

The Stasi, operated the same way and once you start encouraging and praising the community benefits of those willing to keep an eye on their neighbours and report their every transgression, you are preparing a society to accept an organisation like the Stasi, and eventually a society like the Chinese now have and the reality of George Orwell's 1984.

My D had a phone-call from one of the schools last week that a pupil had tested positive so she went to pick up her GS and the school is now closed until further notice. He's 14 and we're in a high infection area----where to my mind no child should have gone back until after Easter.

Franbern, I know for a fact that vulnerable children are in nursery, as my friend is a nursery teacher and she is still working to support those children and their families.

www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-school-re-opening-arrangements-for-january-2021/pages/children-of-keyworkers/

This might help to clarify the situation.

I do know that laptops are still being given out, but with the best will in the world, for a variety of reasons, there is no way every child will have access to online learning.

I have spent this morning supporting my grandaughter remotely, as my son is working from home. It's a logistical nightmare, as I'm shielding.
Although, I have the necessary skills and expertise, I had to be very inventive and it was absolutely exhausting.
Many pupils do not have that advantage.

Marydoll

*Franbern*, schools in Scotland are closed.

When did Scotland close schools to all pupils? Last week the rules were similar to England, where some pupils are attending.

So what do you suggest Franbern? School pupils are serious spreaders of infection.

Franbern That's a gross trivialisation of what the Nazis and Stasi did.

So, if no children at all are actually in attendance at any school, what in earth is happening to the young children of key workers (NHS, food suppliers, etc. etc.)? Are they just being left 'home alone'? What is being done about vulnerable children? Are they being left at home where they are at the most vulnerable? And is broadband and laptops, etc and space in their homes guaranteed to EVERY child in Scotland to be able to continue their education in their homes?

II am seriously interested in your reply to this Marydoll. If all of this in place, then we have a lot to learn.