Second vaccine dose timing

Yes, isn't it Maddyone? And not just Gransnetters but the vast majority of the medical establishment in the UK who are just getting on with vaccinating people and not trying to get their names in the papers?

Has the data from Israel shown that people who have only had one dose have gone on to develop severe symptoms? I though they were still waiting for results.

Israel has vaccinated a very high percentage of its citizens (the highest in the world?), so it's useful to keep an eye on any of their data.

It's never been claimed that vaccination would stop people from being infected, whatever the timing. The test will be in how badly these people are affected.

According to The Times scientists have warned that delaying the second dose of the vaccine could have a catastrophic impact on efforts to end the pandemic. Data from Israel has already begun to show that delaying the second vaccine has shown that the delayed vaccine is much less effective than the UK government has claimed. The World Health Organisation have also said the vaccine should be administered as recommended. Scientists have warned that delaying the second jab could cause mutations. The headline on Reuters says UK scientists question Covid19 dosing vaccine delay. I’m rubbish at posting links but the article goes on to say scientists from Nottingham, Manchester and De Montford universities are questioning the government’s claim.

Quote,
‘While assumptions can be useful for generating a hypothesis, alone they are not a sufficient reason to alter a known effective dosing regime.’

It’s really encouraging to know that Gransnetters know better!

Thank you Alegrias?

And sorry, if course, nobody has claimed that the vaccine stops you catching covid, only that it lessens the likelihood of serious symptoms.

Here I am again with my scientific background, writing about facts again....don't know how you all put up with it....

Curlygirl the vaccines have not (yet) been proven to prevent transmission, even after two doses. The good news is that both the people you mention have not been seriously ill, which may well be due to the fact that they have had the vaccine. We all have to keep on with the precautions just now until higher numbers are vaccinated precisely because we could still be passing it to unvaccinated people who might get very sick.

Curleygitl
That is extremely worrying.

The important word in the link is likely. In other words, even the scientists don’t know. Nobody knows. Posters on this site who claim to know, don’t know. Just because someone has a scientific background doesn’t mean they know. It’s all opinion. Eventually we will know, but don’t pretend that because your background is scientific that you know now. No one will know for several months. We just don’t know if this vaccine will behave in a similar way to others.

Today I have read online of at least 2 people who have caught Covid a month after their first vaccine. One is a nurse who had the Pfizer vaccine and the other a lady in her 80s who as she had her first vaccination before Christmas would also have had the Pfizer. Both of these are now past the three weeks when they would have expected to have had their 2nd vaccination, At the moment neither of them is seriously ill but presumably they could or even have unknowingly infected another person or more who may become seriously ill or even die. Surely this disproves the theory that just giving more people one vaccination with a longer gap can save the lives of others

TBH if there are two vaccinations available I would rather my husband and I had one each giving both of us some protection rather than one of us getting both and getting more protection and the other get none.

I'm none the wiser about who are the right experts to take notice of.

petra - there isn't a right or wrong, just opinions that differ and that's OK

Jane - authors of the article -

Herb F Sewell, Emeritus Professor of Immunology and Consultant immunologist, University of Nottingham.

John FR Robertson, Professor of Surgery and Consultant Surgeon, University of Nottingham.

Marcia Stewart, Social Care professional and emeritus academic BA(Hons) De Montfort University.

Denise Kendrick, Professor of Primary Care Research and General Practitioner, University of Nottingham.

Sheila M Bird, formerly programme leader at the MRC Biostatistics Unit in Cambridge.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Tim Harford is good isn’t he?
His How To Vaccinate the World has been clear and informative, understandable by all without any dumbing down .

That's all anyone is looking for; the need for research.

It's good to see that those in the know agree.

Tim Harford on the pros and cons and the need for research as the vaccination programme is rolled out
timharford.com/2021/01/is-first-dose-first-the-right-vaccination-strategy/

Yep! Carry on camping.

MissAdventure

Well, I have sore misgivings.
I should probably put some talc on 'em.

You've been watching Carry On films.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/clinical-areas/immunology-and-vaccines/both-covid-vaccines-likely-to-be-more-effective-at-12-week-intervals-say-government-experts/

Will this do Gagajo? Published by Pulse, a fairly reputable journal.

Daisymae it has to be remembered that the BMJ is the journal of the British Medical Association, which is the doctors trade union and which has a very large axe to grind as far as government policy is concerned.

I wouldn’t suggest that they would publish anything deliberately misleading or dishonest of course, just that their position is bound to affect editorial decisions about what they choose to publish.

The BMJ opinion is written by people who have expert opinion, why would we not pay attention to their views? It's hardly as if following current advice has got the country out of a difficult position. They are asking the government to rethink.

I was discussing the Pfizer vaccine, but the same argument probably applies equally to any other. Anyone receiving a half vaccine should be told and sign a document saying they understand that the efficacy may be compromised by the long gap, and they should agree to be in a trial studying the effect of a longer gap. To spread out the doses in this way is not licensed, and therefore the population is part of an experiment. Maybe it will be found to be completely safe, or even better, but without studying, no one knows.

OK, I've lost the will to live so this will probably be my last comment.

In the Doctors' Association 3-page letter they devote one paragraph to worrying about how effective the new dosage interval will be and use the 52% efficacy number, which scientists (i.e. not doctors) have shown to be the wrong metric to use. The rest of the letter is about things like how difficult it will be to rebook patients and how they will have to deal with questions of consent. They think a better option would be prolonged lockdown and continued closure of the schools.

The BMJ Opinion piece cites the Israeli 33% number as one of the reasons for not relying on one dose for a longer period; the reasons that this is not valid have come to light today. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55734257

As for people who understand the science - well people who understand science aren't only publishing in medical journals. Some of them write on forums for Grans. You know, maybe this is the wrong decision. Maybe in a year's time we'll all look back and say, yes, in hindsight, we shouldn't have done that. Or maybe we'll go, thank goodness we did that, look at all the lives we've saved.

If you don't like the idea of delayed second doses, tell your doctor you don't want the jab and leave it for someone who does. Support Dame Joan and her crowdfunding. But mainly, stop undermining a decision taken by medical professionals faced with the worst health crisis in their history.

Esspee
I agree with your posts.

I agree with GagaJo
I think the vaccine should be used as advised by the developers. We have no way of knowing if we’re wasting vaccine by spreading it out in this way. Our own scientists did not develop this vaccine and do not know how the half vaccine will work, or how effective it will be.
Doctors wouldn’t normally give you half a course of medication and say it should be enough. There’s a reason for that, it’s because it probably wouldn’t be as effective. Normally a doctor would not play with your life in this way. I cannot think of a situation in which it is more important for medics to follow the science, as advised with a three week gap.

That is very frightening. My mum should be having the vaccine soon. She has severe asthma and would be at great risk if she caught the virus. To experiment with the lives of people like her for the sake of boosting the official vaccinated numbers in a media headline is shocking.

What was the evidence for the Astra-Zeneca vaccine giving even greater immunity when the two doses are given at longer intervals, janeainsworth? That would be incredibly good!