Dominic Cummings

Yes, I think when it does happen, it will be very quick and brutal.

I think the loss of the sense of invincibility was very obvious on here last week too WhiteWave.

This is the problem when you support the man and not the policies. If you look closely at the policies the Tories are very divided on policy and it often looks as if many don't even know what they are - and many in the country feel the same. Yes, one small group has been having its way and the Tory MPs would go through the lobby with a donkey if they thought it necessary and kept their jobs.

However, when someone who has behaved towards their party as Johnson has, shows any sign of weakness in his position as PM, the knives will be out. If they think Cummings can topple him they will disappear from behind him very quickly and he has no political friends. Those who do support him are doing it to gain power themselves.

Interesting reading this weekend about the Tory party and Cummings.

The opinion is that the Tories were riding high after the recent elections, but Cummings has pricked that bubble, which has punctured the Tories sense of invincibility.

Tories are now trying to decide just how many problems both real and immediate Cummings has created for Johnson.

The first and largest is the dilemma over unlocking on 21 June.

If Johnson does and it all goes pear shaped then Johnson leaves himself wide open and rightly so to the charge that he has learned zilch from past covid waves.

If however he delays he will be in huge trouble with the headbangers to the right of the party.

The question over whether the enquiry should be brought forward is also giving the Tories a severe headache.

Worst of all for the Tories, is the question over how much more has Cummings left to reveal.

Johnson knows that Cummings will stop at nothing to win.

And this knowledge is terrifying the Tory party.

Here's the deaths per "million"
Alegrias1 and GrannyGravy - but just look who is ahead of us.

Ah, per capita.

That's not what Keir said though, is it? He's still right.

Alegrias1 per capita not overall number.

Checked

lemongrove

The point I am making here Lucca is that it’s a mistake for anyone to take themselves too seriously on forums.Or, to take any other posters or the subject matter, to heart too much.

It feels like you think posters should just post an opinion and move on rather than taking issue and indeed coming up with facts to back up a different point of view.

I can honestly say that I am impressed with many posters who are far more knowledgeable than I am and who do take the time to research issues, obviously via internet...it’s 2021!

GrannyGravy13

Ah yes the man that has been tweeting that the UK has the highest death toll in Europe when per capita we are currently 17th?

I tried to find your statistics but couldn't. The one I found showed 10 countries above us but 20 with fewer per capital deaths than in the UK. (Statistica.com)

But we do have the highest COVID death toll in Europe....

Honestly, do you think he didn't check?

(Data from Worldometer)

Ah yes the man that has been tweeting that the UK has the highest death toll in Europe when per capita we are currently 17th?

The concern does not cease.

The fact is the government had no plans should a pandemic occur and when one did, they were all out of their depth.

The actual fact is that the government did have plans for a pandemic. It is one of the duties of a government to have plans in place for emergencies, and at one point the UK's pandemic planning was held to be among the best in the world. The fact is that it was run down by tory governments (in place since 2010, don't forget) and the practice exercise, Operation Cygnus (Oct 2016), highlighted serious flaws in its implementation. Unfortunately, the government (tory) was so preoccupied with Brexit that nothing was done to rectify the flaws.

It is completely naive to believe that governments have no pandemic plans in place. Emergency planning is a key task for any large organisation; they would be thoroughly irresponsible not to do it. So that excuse doesn't wash.

Admittedly the 'plan' was for an assumed flu outbreak, but plans can be adjusted. An earlier tory government had even contained a Minister, Rory Stewart, who had played a part in stemming the Ebola virus in Africa, an even nastier virus than covid, unfortunately, by the time covid hit us, Stewart was no longer a tory MP. But he could have been consulted.

It was tory negligence in government that made covid a disaster; May's government is implicated but the full blame must lie with the incompetent, lying charlatan who took her place. Governments shouldn't be 'taken by surprise', they should be alert to what is happening in the world and prepared to take prompt action as necessary. It's not as though what was happening in China and Italy was a little local difficulty; we all saw the news of hundreds of deaths in January/February and the fears that a global pandemic could be on its way.

What on earth do people expect from government that they are able to excuse it as being 'surprised'? It failed to protect us and went on failing to protect us even when the evidence was hitting it in the face...

Coronavirus: 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster-
Boris Johnson skipped five Cobra meetings on the virus, calls to order protective gear were ignored and scientists’ warnings fell on deaf ears. Failings in February may have cost thousands of lives

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh

The fact is the government had no plans should a pandemic occur and when one did, they were all out of their depth. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I hope lessons have been learnt, the UK has to be prepared, stocks of essentials must never be allowed to run low to the point that the government uses taxpayers money to purchase "unseen" items that turn out to be useless. Closing the air/sea ports should have happened early on when the pandemic was known to be spreading. Hancock should not have said people would only go back to care homes if they tested negative, knowing that no tests were available then. Politicians always adjust the truth, (they never lie) ! Bumbling Boris got in because there was no decent opposition and inept May went because she could not "get Brexit done". Boris was as surprised as the rest of us when the Chinese virus emerged and I think it was chaos in No 10, they just did not know what to do and argued among themselves. Once the Covid Rules were in place, everyone should have followed guidelines.
Cummings should have got on a bus and visited a local optician, most were still open, if he was concerned about his eyes, not got in a car with his family and driven to a beauty spot, I cannot imagine GNers doing what he did, and now he is lying about it. Surprise . . Boris could have sacked him then, once the press got the story he had the perfect reason, so I wonder why he did not. Maybe he knew Cummings would sing like a canary and did not want people to really know what a muddle the government were in - could not risk having the great unwashed knowing the truth. I wonder how accurate the big inquiry will be, the government are probably already plotting what will be made public and what will be brushed under that big carpet.

Mollygo

PippaZ

I think there is a change in how people object too Alegrias1.

We now have a great deal of what Tony Judt called, in Reappraisals: Reflections on the Forgotten Twentieth Century (2008), the "neo-Fascist right, whose program constitutes one long scream of resentment - at immigrants, at unemployment, at crime and insecurity, at "Europe'." I would go further and say the scream is against anyone who is not screaming with them - but then I feel the right has moved from economic politics to cultural politics so I would say that, wouldn't I.

Actually PZ I can see there is no point in replying to you.
To take a quote from your post I feel that your ‘scream is against anyone who is not screaming with’ you.
I’m busy doing something which will have impact on people’s actions and knowledge in the real world for the next week, so I’ll have a break-and so will you.

PippaZ Mollygo

I wonder how much influence the covid recovery group has in government given that I can’t help but feel they are just a new incarnation of the ERG? Does anyone know which MP’s form part of this group.

I am a floating voter in many ways too Peasblossom as we don't have proportional representation I don't really have a voice in "real life".
I have to vote for the "least worst option" or know my vote is "wasted".

I’m a bit influenced by what I read on Gransnet.

Sometimes people make a good point, that makes sense to me and changes my thinking.

I also, on the political threads, sometimes think, “Do I want to live in a country where someone like this is in charge.”
I know that means I’m transferring a few peoples personalities to a political party as a whole, but it does work like that I’m afraid.

I am a floating voter. I find myself leaning both ways on different issues.

PippaZ

I think there is a change in how people object too Alegrias1.

We now have a great deal of what Tony Judt called, in Reappraisals: Reflections on the Forgotten Twentieth Century (2008), the "neo-Fascist right, whose program constitutes one long scream of resentment - at immigrants, at unemployment, at crime and insecurity, at "Europe'." I would go further and say the scream is against anyone who is not screaming with them - but then I feel the right has moved from economic politics to cultural politics so I would say that, wouldn't I.

Actually PZ I can see there is no point in replying to you.
To take a quote from your post I feel that your ‘scream is against anyone who is not screaming with’ you.
I’m busy doing something which will have impact on people’s actions and knowledge in the real world for the next week, so I’ll have a break-and so will you.

It's a phenomenon Cummings understands well.

Callistemon

^I wonder why you bother with GN, if you honestly think it makes no difference.^

That point was that this is a chat forum, nothing discussed on here will influence Government policy.
Even if politicians come on GN to ask for opinions, I doubt that they take the slightest bit of notice when decision making, unless it is near election time.

I have to acknowledge that I've learnt a lot on GN but I am not an influencer.
Any of my family who are out there making a difference wouldn't have the time or inclination to spend on GN anyway.

I disagree. People do change their minds after chatting with friends or reading others' opinions. In the past, that chat might have taken place in pubs or over the garden fence, but today it happens on social media. Political influencers know that, which is why they employ huge armies of people to post messages on social media and pay to have lists of people who might be influenced.

That point was that this is a chat forum, nothing discussed on here will influence Government policy.

I don't think anyone expects it to influence government policy.

What it could, perhaps, do is influence people to look more clearly at what is happening in the political sphere and perhaps act in ways that might influence government policy. Writing to MPs, signing petitions, subscribing to campaigns, protesting on the streets... all the legal means of influencing government, or at least making their displeasure, or support, clear.

That point was that this is a chat forum, nothing discussed on here will influence Government policy.

If somebody learns something on here, or has their opinion questioned, it could lead to them re-appraising their voting intentions for future elections. So it does make a difference.

Of course, some will be obdurate....

I had not seen the post above mine when I hit the post button. I think, in telling us we must behave exactly how the quoted poster choses to behave, my addendum to the quote from Judt is proved.