“I know of no episode in history, where a government has willingly aided and abetted the spread of a dangerous infectious disease amongst its own population”

ShamezLadhani@shamezladhani Paediatric infectious disease specialist and epidemiologist.

Has made a long series of tweets regarding Corona Virus and children, very informative.

HolySox There is absolutely no guarantee that the virus will burn out. Viruses don't work like that. Just think about influenza or the common cold, which have never "burnt out". Diseases like measles have never burnt out either, although vaccinations usually keep it under control.

Theoretically, coronavirus could mutate, so that another variant becomes more transmissible but less dangerous. The new variant could, in theory, replace what we have now. On the other hand, there could be more dangerous mutations. We just don't know.

The only serious solution is a vaccine, which would need to be adjusted regularly to deal with new variants - just as the flu vaccine is. That's why it's advantageous to keep transmission low. The more the virus is transmitted, the more opportunities there are for mutation. Therefore, it makes absolute sense to continue with mitigation measures which cause the least inconvenience.

It is entirely possible that there will never be herd immunity.

I agree WWM2 - but we seem to be living amongst many who would vote for Johnson even if he took a dump on their doorstep (which he pretty much has).

Mind you I think Gransnet has a higher proportion - it’s the age demographic (not ageist - have seen plenty written about the future problems for Tory voters as the mid fifties & younger are not voting for them - not even as they get older).

I was pretty depressed by the populist votes in north moving to Tory (because people wanted ‘change’ FFS) but they are rapidly losing ground in the south east - and the erosion of Tory heartlands does make it easier to see the Party they have become.

At 08:19 the OP said she had been enjoying the sun on the Northumberland coast and then at 20:07 said she had lunch out in WGC which is in Hertfordshire. I don't dispute this but 'joked' about the distance, assuming she was enjoying the sun on the same morning. I would expect she probably was in neither place to keep herself anonymous. Point was she said she had lunch out. I trust she did but then I was commenting this implied she felt reasonably safe from COVID to do so. Would this not mean she displayed some faith in current government policies and procedures?

Holysox. No. You were desperately trying to pick fault with the OP and got it wrong. Are you now accusing her of lying?

Whitewave stated she'd been enjoying the sun on the Northumberland coast so naturally I assumed that was where she was. Maybe she was but did a 'Dominic Cummings' to have lunch with her family in Herfordshire. My point is the OP is getting on with life by trusting that this government are making things as safe as possible. If she really believed we are all in mortal danger she would self isolate.

Are the Government aiding and abetting the enemy, COVID? Of course not. This is war. There are two approaches.
1. Quarantine - Australia is an example of this approach but COVID is still prevalent as noted above. Not to forget it is all over the planet!
2. Vaccination and preventative measures with a view of gradually attaining herd immunity until the virus burns out.

Our government is taking option 2. This is war and there will be deaths but choosing the right time, scenario will minimise the number of excess deaths. At the moment cases are massive but deaths are relatively very low so it looks like they are getting it right. No evidence yet to say otherwise.

If deaths start shooting up then we may need to retreat ... but do what? When? Let's pray Boris's 'Freedom Day' does turn out to be a kind of D- Day, because if not then we really have something to fear.

maddyone

No one is risking anything with regard to children as the vaccines are not licensed for children in this country. I understand that there have been a tiny number of children who have suffered inflammation of the heart following vaccination in countries where vaccination is allowed for older children, those over twelve years of age. I also understand that British scientists are watching the situation with vaccinated children carefully. I’m not aware that any country is vaccinating children under ten or maybe twelve years of age.I’m happy to be corrected if anyone knows anything different with regard to the vaccination of children.

I think sending the all out to gather together in hot and sweaty place where they will not even be on breaths distance apart is risking their health.

I was not suggesting vaccination and wouldn't unless it has been recommended by the appropriate people.

nanna8

growstuff

nanna8

And in Wuhan they experimented with a new virus to see how it mutates and adapts ….

What are you on about?

Work it out. You don’t have to be a brain surgeon.

Do you have any proof? Or is it just some conspiracy theory based on rumours? There's a difference.

growstuff

nanna8

And in Wuhan they experimented with a new virus to see how it mutates and adapts ….

What are you on about?

Work it out. You don’t have to be a brain surgeon.

growstuff

Callistemon

I was responding in the first place to something posted much earlier, not by you PippaZ

Yes, I think there is a misunderstanding

I was always the messenger not the writer of the article in the New Statesman. I was trying to explain the rationale behind the argument. Pippa is correct. The significant phrase is "whole population". In each of the cases you have mentioned, the "whole population" hasn't been the target.

Yes of course that is what is meant.

Callistemon

I was responding in the first place to something posted much earlier, not by you PippaZ

Yes, I think there is a misunderstanding

I was always the messenger not the writer of the article in the New Statesman. I was trying to explain the rationale behind the argument. Pippa is correct. The significant phrase is "whole population". In each of the cases you have mentioned, the "whole population" hasn't been the target.

maddyone

No one is risking anything with regard to children as the vaccines are not licensed for children in this country. I understand that there have been a tiny number of children who have suffered inflammation of the heart following vaccination in countries where vaccination is allowed for older children, those over twelve years of age. I also understand that British scientists are watching the situation with vaccinated children carefully. I’m not aware that any country is vaccinating children under ten or maybe twelve years of age.I’m happy to be corrected if anyone knows anything different with regard to the vaccination of children.

12 - 18 year olds are children and the Pfizer vaccine is licensed for them. The truth is that the UK doesn't have enough doses for them and certain influential people on the JCVI thinks they don't suffer long Covid, so it's perfectly OK for them to be infected.

nanna8

And in Wuhan they experimented with a new virus to see how it mutates and adapts ….

What are you on about?

And in Wuhan they experimented with a new virus to see how it mutates and adapts ….

No one is risking anything with regard to children as the vaccines are not licensed for children in this country. I understand that there have been a tiny number of children who have suffered inflammation of the heart following vaccination in countries where vaccination is allowed for older children, those over twelve years of age. I also understand that British scientists are watching the situation with vaccinated children carefully. I’m not aware that any country is vaccinating children under ten or maybe twelve years of age.I’m happy to be corrected if anyone knows anything different with regard to the vaccination of children.

Callistemon

Blossoming

On a much smaller scale, but deliberate and disgusting. I wonder how many similar “studies” have been carried out in, and remain, secret.

The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male was an ethically abusive study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the United States Public Health Service and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The purpose of this study was to observe the natural history of untreated syphilis.

www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

The Japanese Empire of the 1930s carried out experiments on Chinese prisoners including bacterial inoculations, vivisections etc.
In the 1950s in Japan experiments were carried out on Japanese children and MH patients were infected with deadly diseases

In Dachau experiments were carried out on twins, as well as many other experiments in the name of medicine.

In Sweden many people were compulsorily sterilised up until the 1970s.

Years ago, many groups of people such as children with disabilities, MH patients, prisoners, the military were infected with diseases as experiments.
They were not told what was happening to them.

But this is the same as before. In each of those cases, these people were seen to be enemies of the state or a burden on the State.

Perhaps you are saying that is what Johnson thought about the over 80s. But why is he now risking the children and young people? What is his, and his supporters, problem with them?

I was responding in the first place to something posted much earlier, not by you PippaZ

Yes, I think there is a misunderstanding

Callistemon

^That was not on the "whole population" scale Callistemon^

Isn't that just what I said, PippaZ?

Nor did I say those experiments were OK - far from it.

?

Well, there's a two-way misunderstanding - it is getting late.

I apologise. You did say it was not a "whole population" comparison. But that makes me wonder why you put it forward as a comparison at all.

Also, you misread what I said. I said nothing about anyone saying those experiments were OK. I did say it they seemed to be being chucked into the conversation to justify what Johnson et al have done. Or so it seemed. I can't see any other reason why the random events were put forward.

Blossoming

On a much smaller scale, but deliberate and disgusting. I wonder how many similar “studies” have been carried out in, and remain, secret.

The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male was an ethically abusive study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the United States Public Health Service and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The purpose of this study was to observe the natural history of untreated syphilis.

www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

The Japanese Empire of the 1930s carried out experiments on Chinese prisoners including bacterial inoculations, vivisections etc.
In the 1950s in Japan experiments were carried out on Japanese children and MH patients were infected with deadly diseases

In Dachau experiments were carried out on twins, as well as many other experiments in the name of medicine.

In Sweden many people were compulsorily sterilised up until the 1970s.

Years ago, many groups of people such as children with disabilities, MH patients, prisoners, the military were infected with diseases as experiments.
They were not told what was happening to them.

I would love some clarification to know what your argument actually is.

Right then.

You were pointing out that nobody was talking about the thing you wanted us to talk about, i.e. the case numbers and deaths. But your original post had several themes; the quote from the New Statesman, the quote from Sky News and a comment about voting intentions.

The first of these was so egregiously wrong, that people were drawn to telling readers how inaccurate it is. The cases/deaths message is lost in the middle of your post and got lost in the noise.

Disagreeing with you and highlighting things that are wrong is not policing posts. It's just disagreeing and highlighting things that are wrong.

On a much smaller scale, but deliberate and disgusting. I wonder how many similar “studies” have been carried out in, and remain, secret.

The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male was an ethically abusive study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the United States Public Health Service and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The purpose of this study was to observe the natural history of untreated syphilis.

www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

Ashcombe

Hope this raises a smile……!

???

That was not on the "whole population" scale Callistemon

Isn't that just what I said, PippaZ?

Nor did I say those experiments were OK - far from it.

?

Alegrias1

Watch out everyone, those goalposts are moving...

You problem is that you constantly try to police posts, but you never come up with an answer.

I’ve asked you to disprove the OP. You quoted another poster, I countered with a rebuff saying that the experiment bore no relationship to what is happening in this country. The experiment, was controlled very limited and only carried out on a certain societal group.

Likewise any experiment carried out at PD.

I have asked you to give me an example of another government that has acted as this government has done.

Callistemon

Porton Down and the common cold experiments?

They also carried out other tests under the guise of common cold experiments but not on the whole population.

That was not on the "whole population" scale Callistemon. You and Alegrias1 seem to be saying that the examples you offer make the fact that the Johnson's government have "aided and abetted" the spread of the virus across a whole nation all okay.

Obviously, I could have got that wrong. But with people just throwing in odd, past events it's difficult to work out what you are both are trying to put forward. I would love some clarification to know what your argument actually is.