“I know of no episode in history, where a government has willingly aided and abetted the spread of a dangerous infectious disease amongst its own population”

MoorlandMooner

From what I have read in the press and seen in my town so many people are keeping to the previous rules, wearing masks, distancing etc that it seems that the vast majority of people fear that Professor Hayward's statement is a high possibility and are choosing not to go back to normal life despite the government's Freedom Day.

It’s personal responsibility, as the government suggested.

PippaZ

growstuff

MerylStreep

If there was ever a time to quote David Cameron, it’s now!!!
calm down dear ?

I find it despicable that people are being told to calm down when they are their relatives or friends are ill or dying unnecessarily.

Sadly it seems that various Conservative supporters have now descended to the point where they can only make personal attacks [read my recent posts GNHQ if you are checking this].

It is pretty sad but does tell us they have nothing concrete to say in favour of the government. It would be really interesting to hear, if they had.

You do seem to mention GNHQ rather a lot PippaZ I don’t think they would like you using them as a veiled threat to posters.That’s twice you have done it on this thread alone.

For your information....MerylStreep is absolutely not a Conservative voter.Don’t assume anything, you may be wrong.

Callistemon

^There are plenty of examples of government wanting to kill off enemies, but please could you give an example of a government consciously killing its own people.^

consciously killing its own people.

German Jews were German citizens.
Political enemies of Stalin were still Russian citizens.

You are being disingenuous, growstuff

Still, if you cannot see that, there is no point in explaining it.

I think growstuff has already said that the writer of the article pointed out that both Jews and Stalin's opposers were seen as enemies of the state. As far as I am aware that has not been said of those who have been put in the line of Covid.

Perhaps you should write to Gabriel Scally (President of the epidemiology and public health section of the Royal Society of Medicine) or the New Statesman and let them know they are being "disingenuous".

growstuff

PippaZ

growstuff

poshpaws Either that or Conservatives within the Conservative Party itself need to say that "enough is enough". Conservative leaders are usually brought down by pressures within the Party itself.

They do seem to get to the point where the men in grey suits get together and then one goes and offers the PM the choice of leaving or being thrown out. But you are always dealing with the Conservative power over principle factor - look how far they have allowed Johnson to go.

It's a question of numbers. The so-called "red wall Conservative MPs" are generally a motley crew, who would be more at home in UKIP. They rely on Johnson's populism for their monthly pay cheques, but that can't last forever and there are still some decent Conservative MPs left.

It will be growstuff, you're right.

It seems that a few bits of information are coming together. The article points out that the government "willingly aided and abetted the spread of a dangerous infectious disease amongst its own population".

At the same time as articles like this are appearing we hear more tales of lifelong Conservatives and their opinion of Johnson and how his core morals values have influenced the Covid crisis.

And then we have the man who went to Barnard Castle. My thinking on what he has to say - including the written evidence re people over 80, etc., is that if you are determined to get revenge (and I have no doubt he is) it is best to stick as close to the truth as possible when driving the dagger home.

Just one other thing I have picked up today. If you have lived to seventy-nine, your average life expectancy is nine years [one of the talking heads on one of the news programmes]. So if you decide that sacrificing 80-year-olds is okay, you are depriving them, on average, of eight years of life.

It’s just been announced that front line careers that get pinged no longer have to self isolate. Does that mean eg that carers that come to my neighbours house twice a day can go clubbing in a Saturday night, then visit my neighbour on a Monday, don’t have to be vaccinated and don’t have to legally wear a mask? Or is it just people working in hospitals? I can’t keep up with all this. The government have just realised that their herd immunity strategy is going to make the country grind to a halt. Her sons pay a fortune for this care so surely she needs to be safeguarded by the care company.

growstuff

I'm wondering if it is possible to have a discussion on GN, which sticks to the topic and avoids smearing.

Nope. Not possible. I keep hoping.

Regarding the daily death numbers reported on the evening news, we need to remember that we are only told that those people died within 28 days of a positive covid test.

We are not told how many of those people died of something other than covid.

Nor are those listed who died 29+ days after contracting Covid.

However, what is happening is that people who actually understand viruses are being ignored. A social scientist is being paraded in front of the cameras on the BBC and elsewhere and described as an "expert", when he is no such thing. He also has some very questionable views bordering on eugenics.

Well, that is worrying, growstuff.
Is this the government taking his advice and ignoring that of virologists, epidemiologists?

It sounds as if they have decided on a course of action and have sought out the experts to back up this agenda, the opposite to what they should be doing.

How do you know that most of us accept that this strategy is the lesser of two evils?

I don't think I could face another referendum ever in my life, but the trouble with leaving people to their own devices is that one person's 'common sense' is another's recklessness, and none of us lives in a vacuum.

I think I am looking at yet more house arrest. I have barely left the house since last April, and am losing the will to live. If we can't have Christmas with family for another year, I'll be ready to jump in the Mersey.

I also wish that people would stop focusing on deaths and hospitalisations, as whilst they are obviously awful, long covid is a serious risk too. I really don't know why we can't wait a bit longer to roll back the restrictions. I worry for my 30 year old son, who is still not double-jabbed but has worked throughout the pandemic. I can't help thinking that it is all but inevitable that he will get Covid now, and all I can do is hope that it doesn't affect the rest of his life.

I’m sure the rest of the world are watching the situation here, but with interest not horror.
Of course it would be extremely risky for other countries to emulate our strategy simply because their vaccination programmes are way behind ours.

It’s now perfectly clear that, thankfully, the vaccines have broken the link between infection rates and hospitalisation and death.

We are one of a tiny number of countries which have vaccinated in sufficient numbers to attempt what the PM has.

Is it a bit of a gamble? Yes, but the reasoning behind the timing has been explained to us and most of us accept that it is the lesser of the two evils of opening now or waiting a few months.

Regarding the daily death numbers reported on the evening news, we need to remember that we are only told that those people died within 28 days of a positive covid test.

We are not told how many of those people died of something other than covid.

I'm wondering if it is possible to have a discussion on GN, which sticks to the topic and avoids smearing.

Callistemon

The government does need to to consider the views of behavioural scientists, social scientist, economists as well of those of virologists, epidemiologists and those in charge of the NHS.

Virologists may know from research how viruses may behave but perhaps behavioural scientists may have more expertise in knowing how people react in certain situations.
This is all new to everyone.

It's a tightrope and imo Johnson has fallen off but it was and is a tricky balancing act.

I agree that a wide spectrum of views is needed. However, what is happening is that people who actually understand viruses are being ignored. A social scientist is being paraded in front of the cameras on the BBC and elsewhere and described as an "expert", when he is no such thing. He also has some very questionable views bordering on eugenics.

Another person who has been widely quoted today is Lord Sumption, who is a historian and definitely has eugenic views. He claimed that the median age of those of those who died was 80, the implication being they're old, so don't really matter. He clearly needs to study averages because an average age of 80 means that a significant number of below 80. He also claimed that most people who have died of Covid-19 would have died within a year anyway. Yes, some would have done, but research has shown that men who have died form Covid lost an average of 10.4 years and women 10 years. Even people with underlying health conditions such as asthma or diabetes can live perfectly normal lives with lifestyle changes and/or medication.

These people are ignoring scientific data and peddling their own agendas. Dingwall was a signatory to the Great Barrington Declaration, so is not independent. They certainly do not deserve to be hailed as "experts" or to be on important decision-making bodies such as NERVTAG and the JCVI.

From what I have read in the press and seen in my town so many people are keeping to the previous rules, wearing masks, distancing etc that it seems that the vast majority of people fear that Professor Hayward's statement is a high possibility and are choosing not to go back to normal life despite the government's Freedom Day.

The government does need to to consider the views of behavioural scientists, social scientist, economists as well of those of virologists, epidemiologists and those in charge of the NHS.

Virologists may know from research how viruses may behave but perhaps behavioural scientists may have more expertise in knowing how people react in certain situations.
This is all new to everyone.

It's a tightrope and imo Johnson has fallen off but it was and is a tricky balancing act.

The government ignored the Kent variant which then spread from here throughout Europe. It ignored the India variant because Johnson was hell bent on travelling to India to get a trade deal. It ignored the pandemic initially because we had a PM too busy with his new relationship, divorce and ‘getting brexit done’. The government is now planning to let the infection rate rise to 100,000 a day which is the very thing that results in new variants. The rest of the world knows this which is why they’re looking on in horror.

There are plenty of examples of government wanting to kill off enemies, but please could you give an example of a government consciously killing its own people.

consciously killing its own people.

German Jews were German citizens.
Political enemies of Stalin were still Russian citizens.

You are being disingenuous, growstuff

Still, if you cannot see that, there is no point in explaining it.

As if things are ever as clear cut as that. This virus emerged and mutated as fast as it could with the scientists and govt doing their best as they went along. A constantly changing situation with an environment of people that they couldn't be sure would go along with the various lockdowns and vetos. Meanwhile the economy which fuels all the funding and jobs had to be kept afloat for all our sakes.
Who would want to be in charge of managing all that?!
NHS has done a great job. We should continue to support it by taking the sensible precautions we all know but, going further, if we really want to protect it we all should take what responsibility we can for our own health. By this I only mean the basics like keeping as slim and fit as we can, not drinking to excess, not smoking etc and not taking daft advantage of A&E or GPs. I'm sure we all know people who have.

Ever wish the party members had voted for Rory Stewart instead?

PippaZ

growstuff

poshpaws Either that or Conservatives within the Conservative Party itself need to say that "enough is enough". Conservative leaders are usually brought down by pressures within the Party itself.

They do seem to get to the point where the men in grey suits get together and then one goes and offers the PM the choice of leaving or being thrown out. But you are always dealing with the Conservative power over principle factor - look how far they have allowed Johnson to go.

It's a question of numbers. The so-called "red wall Conservative MPs" are generally a motley crew, who would be more at home in UKIP. They rely on Johnson's populism for their monthly pay cheques, but that can't last forever and there are still some decent Conservative MPs left.

I can't believe your callous dismissal of the genocide of thousands of innocent men, women and children, growstuff.

Err? Where on earth have I dismissed genocide?

The author of that article explains his headline and says he thought about these cases before he wrote it.

His point is (disagree with it if you wish, but don't hallucinate about something I haven't written) that governments such as Nazi Germany were getting rid of enemies. They saw Jews and others as legitimate targets because they considered them enemies of the state. The people in the UK who will die from Covid unnecessarily aren't considered to enemies of the state. They are "merely" collateral damage in a misguided policy, driven by ideology, in which people don't matter.

growstuff

poshpaws Either that or Conservatives within the Conservative Party itself need to say that "enough is enough". Conservative leaders are usually brought down by pressures within the Party itself.

They do seem to get to the point where the men in grey suits get together and then one goes and offers the PM the choice of leaving or being thrown out. But you are always dealing with the Conservative power over principle factor - look how far they have allowed Johnson to go.

Other things to read up on: the Tuskegee airmen and the rise of crack cocaine use in poor Black areas of US cities.

…and we have somehow allowed ourselves to be brainwashed into thinking it is acceptable….

growstuff

Callistemon

growstuff

Mollygo

‘I know of no episode in history’
You would if they’d had the Internet back then.

There are plenty of examples of government wanting to kill off enemies, but please could you give an example of a government consciously killing its own people.

Um, Syria?
And countless others

Have we all forgotten because we're so concerned about ourselves?

In Syria, the government killed off people it considered to be enemies.

There are plenty of examples of government wanting to kill off enemies, but please could you give an example of a government consciously killing its own people.

growstuff
I can't believe your callous dismissal of the genocide of thousands of innocent men, women and children, growstuff.

Likewise Hitler and the German Jews and Romanies?
Stalin and his fellow Russians?
Etc

So that is ok then, is it, to kill your fellow citizens because they may be of a different religion, ethnic origin, hold different political beliefs?

Words fail me.

Even if the government never actually intended for thousands of people to be infected and die before, surely no one can argue against the fact that their latest strategy is for many thousands of people to become infected. Of which some will die and many will develop long covid.