“I know of no episode in history, where a government has willingly aided and abetted the spread of a dangerous infectious disease amongst its own population”

PippaZ

Alegrias1

I subscribe to the New Statesman.

Maybe you should read my posts.

This gets sillier and sillier. I subscribe to it too, and a couple of others. Does that mean I have become the fount of all wisdom? That I must be read and taken as one of superior knowledge too? I don't think that describes any of us, does it?

Yes it is getting silly, isn't it?

When somebody sarcastically suggests I read an article in a magazine I already subscribe to, online and offline, in an effort to criticise my comments. A fact that I've already mentioned on this thread.

Must be the heat....

Really PippaZ, really? I can't do right for doing wrong, can I? That is not a personal attack, its an observation.

Alegrias1

I subscribe to the New Statesman.

Maybe you should read my posts.

This gets sillier and sillier. I subscribe to it too, and a couple of others. Does that mean I have become the fount of all wisdom? That I must be read and taken as one of superior knowledge too? I don't think that describes any of us, does it?

growstuff

I'm guessing that it is intended to be a parody of Churchill's words 'Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few'

I understand it's been rumoured that Johnson was going to make a Churchill-like speech on his so-called 'Freedom Day'.

Good point.
Pretty pompous then the OP and Boris. Churchill, another matter.

poshpaws Either that or Conservatives within the Conservative Party itself need to say that "enough is enough". Conservative leaders are usually brought down by pressures within the Party itself.

Alegrias1

IMO WWM2, if you decide to attract readers to a thread by heading it with outrageous claims that are easy to disprove, then it detracts from the content of the rest of the post. Like the MSM, headlines are used to pose false claims that then make the rest of the post doubtful.

So was the thread meant to be about a historically unprecedented event, the outcomes of the government's strategy, or a criticism of the government?

And another personal attack.

One thing it does seem to show is that no one can say this is not an episode in history, where a government has willingly aided and abetted the spread of a dangerous infectious disease amongst its own population.

No one seems to want to put points forward points about this that tell us that this hasn't happened; this isn't true and why. It's just personal attacks after whataboutery after more personal attacks. I don't matter in this discussion nor, personally does Whitewave. What matters is what this government is doing.

I agree with you OP. England needs the opposition parties to come to an agreement to work together to get this calamitous government out before more damage still is done and half (at least) of the population is either dead or suffering Long Covid. Sadly, I read that the Labour party was approached for this by the LibDems and Greens but was so far up themselves they refused. Presumably they feel that keeping the Tories in power is a lesser evil than tainting their own dogma temporarily. I am very afraid for us all.

I'm guessing that it is intended to be a parody of Churchill's words 'Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few'

I understand it's been rumoured that Johnson was going to make a Churchill-like speech on his so-called 'Freedom Day'.

I subscribe to the New Statesman.

Maybe you should read my posts.

Alegrias1

IMO WWM2, if you decide to attract readers to a thread by heading it with outrageous claims that are easy to disprove, then it detracts from the content of the rest of the post. Like the MSM, headlines are used to pose false claims that then make the rest of the post doubtful.

So was the thread meant to be about a historically unprecedented event, the outcomes of the government's strategy, or a criticism of the government?

It's a direct quotation from an article in the New Statesman. Maybe you should read it.

Alegrias1

IMO WWM2, if you decide to attract readers to a thread by heading it with outrageous claims that are easy to disprove, then it detracts from the content of the rest of the post. Like the MSM, headlines are used to pose false claims that then make the rest of the post doubtful.

So was the thread meant to be about a historically unprecedented event, the outcomes of the government's strategy, or a criticism of the government?

Wise comment Alegrias. I am probably known for being somewhat verbose with my posts, but I love language and history combined. The title of the thread attracted me and enticed me to post some comments because to me it sounded different and interesting. I soon realised I would be out of my depth in any ensuing political discussion. To be honest I'm still a bit confused where certain posters are coming from?

maddyone

Pippa, you appear to dismiss most of what others have had to say, so please tell us what you think should be being done. Up to now all you seem to have done is criticise others for their comments. I’m looking forward to your ideas.

What has anyone said that I have "dismissed" that you felt was a point of discussion?

I have commented about posts that were a personal insult or those that question some hypothetically powerful opposition because it hasn't waved a magic wand. They aren't discussion points. They are just verbal abuse and whataboutery. Your post above is whataboutery too. No one can discuss them - isn't that the whole idea of making the - so I just pointed out that they are just that.

I have discussed other points. Perhaps you choose not to read those.

It would be interesting to hear what you in all your wisdom would have done whitewave . I am genuinely interested. Also I’ve not heard any constructive suggestions from the opposition only criticism which is such a ‘cop out’. I have no political allegiance I try to read the media news which covers both sides of the political debate so that I can come to a balanced conclusion. You appear unable to do this and it seems that you need to engage in criticism of the government in everything you post on whatever subject. We’re having a heat wave just surprised you haven’t posted to blame Boris but early days yet! ?

IMO WWM2, if you decide to attract readers to a thread by heading it with outrageous claims that are easy to disprove, then it detracts from the content of the rest of the post. Like the MSM, headlines are used to pose false claims that then make the rest of the post doubtful.

So was the thread meant to be about a historically unprecedented event, the outcomes of the government's strategy, or a criticism of the government?

Whitewavemark2

It is astounding that the issue that is actually being addressed by posters is a throwaway remark I made.

The content of the main body of the OP is depressingly being ignored!

Not by me. You’re absolutely right.

Pippa, you appear to dismiss most of what others have had to say, so please tell us what you think should be being done. Up to now all you seem to have done is criticise others for their comments. I’m looking forward to your ideas.

Well, if I was PM this is what I would have done:
1. Not relaxed the rules until 80% of the adult population had been vaccinated.
2. Issue people who have had two jabs with a pass that would allow them to visit cinemas, theatres, restaurants, pubs, clubs, foreign travel etc.
Both of these would give people the incentive to be vaccinated
which, at the moment, seems the only way out of this dilemma.

I think the issue is, for me, that one of my family members is in a care setting of sorts and triggers an emotional response to anything of this nature as I'm really concerned of the risks. There was lots of evidence after the first wave that people with learning disabilities died too, some of them quite young.

I have an A in A level Biology but fwiw all I can remember is fruit flies. It seemed to take up so much of the first year anyway and I can't even remember how that concluded other than they reproduced a lot

Alegrias1

^We are being desensitised into thinking things like ‘oh good, only 20 people dead today’.^

We've got a new disease that didn't even exist 2 years ago. People will be affected by it for years to come, its not 100% curable or preventable yet.

450 people die of cancer every day. Does that keep you up at night, blaming the government for mismanagement?

Given that the government has underfunded the NHS for years which has no doubt resulted in people dying of cancer then yes, it does. And people with cancer are now having to lock themselves away because of the government policy to let the virus rip through the country.

Alegrias1

^We are being desensitised into thinking things like ‘oh good, only 20 people dead today’.^

We've got a new disease that didn't even exist 2 years ago. People will be affected by it for years to come, its not 100% curable or preventable yet.

450 people die of cancer every day. Does that keep you up at night, blaming the government for mismanagement?

Totally agree, I do think the MSM has a lot to blame for whipping the Country into a frenzy

Perhaps all deaths should be classified and reported daily, it would put Covid mortality numbers into perspective.

Spot on Alegrias

We are being desensitised into thinking things like ‘oh good, only 20 people dead today’.

We've got a new disease that didn't even exist 2 years ago. People will be affected by it for years to come, its not 100% curable or preventable yet.

450 people die of cancer every day. Does that keep you up at night, blaming the government for mismanagement?

GrannyGravy13

Au contraire PippaZ I am not the poster dissecting every post on this thread ?

So you would say it was okay to come to a thread late and not bother to read it. I accepted that people have taken time to write their posts and therefore want to be part of a discussion - so I discussed.

Perhaps you can tell me why that doesn't suit you?

Mattsmum2

I think the issue is, no one really knows. We don’t have a crystal ball, we don’t have a time machine that means we can go back and replay the scenarios until we get one that the majority like better. If you get 100 scientists in a room and pose a question, any question, you will get different opinions and answers. How does that leave you and I? It leaves us all responsible for our own actions, good and bad. Life is full of risks, we all have to balance that and be brave.

We do have a crystal ball. It’s called the last 18 months. And, in it we will see this government making the same mistakes over and over again. It’s like Groundhog Day. If people weren’t dying because of it it would be funny but, as it is it’s the stuff of nightmares. We are being desensitised into thinking things like ‘oh good, only 20 people dead today’.

To answer the question in the thread title this is from the US. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study