“By the end of winter, pretty much everyone in Germany will probably be vaccinated, recovered or dead,”

Surely compulsory vaccinations are a matter for protection of society as a whole. Unvaccinated people may not be harmed themselves, but may infect people who die.
As to personal freedoms - what if people demand freedom to travel 100mph through the streets; to assault anyone who upsets them; to trespass into our gardens as a ’right to roam’ ? There are countless laws intended to protect citizens of a civilsed society. If the right to exempt ourselves from some measures, why not all?

If doubters saw my son who was a fit healthy 42 year old and unfortunately caught covid before jabs were available for his age they would rethink. He is now 10 month in, not working, 10% of normal quality of life and absolutely battered and was never even in hospital apart from overnight once when pain was so bad he thought he was having a heart attack. Unfortunately he was a key worker, but not NHS so didn’t get the jab early unlike his wife who was also a key worker but in NHS. All key workers family should have been done especially those whose other half’s were front line NHS , but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Wear a mask , get vaccinated, take care, you definitely don’t want to get covid or Long Covid like my son for which there is no cure yet

This is always going to be a highly debated subject. My personal opinion is that people should get vaccinated. If they decide they don't want to get the jab they should expect restrictions being imposed. Business can decide they wont have people on their property unless they are masked and vaccinated. This is a legal stand they can make. Care Homes and Hospitals can refuse to employ unvaccinated people, airlines refuse to carry them. It's all very well our governments urging people to get jabbed but, until there are life impacting restrictions imposed, people will always stamp their feet and cry personal choice.... It's not just your choice, it's ours too

My feelings exactly, Lucca

Only one person knows when/how your going to die can’t change or delay it !!!

There’s a doctor who worked on the Covid wards on Jeremy Vine as we speak. He thinks Covid vaccination should be mandatory, because of the things he has seen on the Covid wards. He works/ed there in addition to his role as a GP. He says he’s frustrated because so many people are desperately in need of other treatments but are having to wait because beds are still being used by Covid patients, and they are mainly unvaccinated in hospital now.

I haven’t been in favour of mandatory vaccination despite my own experience, but I am in favour of some sort of vaccine passport. However this doctor is making me think. It’s a fundamental question, when do the rights of others trample over my rights, or your rights? I had to produce evidence of my vaccinations in order to go to Greece earlier this year. Were my rights eroded by that? I don’t think so. Are we saying it’s all rights and no responsibilities? Where are the responsibilities of the unvaccinated? Don’t they have any?

Ladyleftfieldlover

I am all for freedom of choice but sometimes there has to be an exception to the rule. This is true in the case of vaccination. I was reading a recent article in the Guardian by the ‘secret surgeon’ who works as a respiratory consultant. He actually said he felt angry at the number of unvaccinated patients on his covid ward. People who had been hitherto fit and healthy so hadn’t had the vaccine. Now they are blocking beds of those who require urgent, or even less urgent surgery. I am afraid he was blaming the unvaccinated for the current crisis in hospitals. Yes, bring in compulsory vaccination as well as mandatory mask wearing. It is not a slippery slope to fascism or whatever, merely a way to get out of this nightmare situation.

Here's that article, I think Ladyleftfieldlover. I thought it was excellent.

Notice that s/he doesn't support mandatory vaccination, even for NHS Staff.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

Sorry Lucca I didn't mean you ?

Cross posting.

Ok that’s me told, I do not understand statistics.
I don’t think Australians are being smug they are just glad the vaccine “stroll out” has become a roll out.
However I do credit them with their attitude to mask wearing.

I am not in favour of mandatory vaccination because how would it be enforced? My son said he foresaw a situation where the vaccinated would kill the unvaccinated- this is why he feels that people who are vaccinated are part of the problem (including me and our family)

I do wonder how Austria is planning to make vaccination mandatory. What is the punishment if you don't get it? It's really sad how covid has caused a huge divide.

Nobody's statistics are wrong, probably. But if someone comes along and suggests Austria should follow their model, because they have 90% of over 16s double vaccinated, it begs the question, well what proportion of Austrian over 16s are double vaccinated?

Answer: I don't know.

But the World in data site says 71% of all Australians, all ages, are double vaccinated, versus 65% of Austrians of all ages. So hardly a huge difference. So using the 90% measure is not comparing like with like.

It’s easy to be critical, but Australians view their states as equivalent to our four nations in the UK, we class them as one homogenous country but they don’t.

Lucca - it all depends on which statistics you believe. I prefer:

ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=OWID_WRL

I rather think nanna8 is referring to NSW, and over age 15? Australia has an excellent Government Covid data website, you can see it by state on there. In fairness they appear to be doing very well after a slow start. I have family in WA, and the rate is less there - but they have escaped Covid to a very large degree so far.

nanna8

Interesting how people who don’t live here know better than we do. I repeat, we are approaching 90 % double vaxxed,not single. A very slow start admittedly but we have made up for it. No smugness, that is in the view of the rather biased poster. Some people just like to disagree with just about anything, sadly. Their issue.. No one on this earth has the right to be smug because we now have freedom and we know the virus will spread.

90% of over sixteens, 71% of the entire population. As I said before. About the same as the UK. Bit less than Scotland. So boasting about how coercion has worked over there is misplaced.

Some people don't understand stats, sadly. Their issue.

Alegrias1

The Australian share of the total population double vaccinated is 71%. I wouldn't be too smug just yet.

Am I being dense here ? My son also tells me they are practically at 90% double jabbed over 16

I am all for freedom of choice but sometimes there has to be an exception to the rule. This is true in the case of vaccination. I was reading a recent article in the Guardian by the ‘secret surgeon’ who works as a respiratory consultant. He actually said he felt angry at the number of unvaccinated patients on his covid ward. People who had been hitherto fit and healthy so hadn’t had the vaccine. Now they are blocking beds of those who require urgent, or even less urgent surgery. I am afraid he was blaming the unvaccinated for the current crisis in hospitals. Yes, bring in compulsory vaccination as well as mandatory mask wearing. It is not a slippery slope to fascism or whatever, merely a way to get out of this nightmare situation.

Interesting how people who don’t live here know better than we do. I repeat, we are approaching 90 % double vaxxed,not single. A very slow start admittedly but we have made up for it. No smugness, that is in the view of the rather biased poster. Some people just like to disagree with just about anything, sadly. Their issue.. No one on this earth has the right to be smug because we now have freedom and we know the virus will spread.

On Tuesday Scotland decided not to extend the vaccine passport scheme to more venues. It was decided by the government that despite our relatively high rate, requiring such measures would be out of proportion. In fact you will now be able to show proof of a negative test instead of vaccination status for venues where the passport is needed.

That might change in the future. But right now, I'm glad I live in a country that doesn't resort to knee jerk responses to complex issues.

Hetty58

Alegrias1, Surely, you should know, by now, that those who've been vaccinated are far less likely to catch and transmit the virus.

Of course I do. I'm not an idiot. Trying to adopt a patronising position of superior knowledge won't work with me, I'm afraid. I'm not the one proposing that people who haven't had the vaccine are like terrorists.

One 0f my sons refuses to have anything to do with the vaccinated -people in our family. Unfortunately he has cut off his sibling , parents , grandparents and all other relatives.

Pammie I agree with your post at 15.33 yesterday. You say that many anti vaxxers don’t see the need as they believe Covid is a mild disease which they will get over easily. You go to say you thought that too until you and your husband caught Covid before you could be vaccinated and go on to say Boy did we change our minds once we’d had it………..I never ever want to feel like that again.

I had no doubts at any time about the vaccine, but I caught Covid before I could have my vaccination. I never want to feel like that again either. I was hospitalised, on oxygen for twelve days, and on a cocktail of medications, antibiotics (for the pneumonia I had) anti viral infusions, steroids, heparin, potassium( by drip then later tablets) a medication whose name I forget that broke up the copious amounts of fluid I told my consultant I felt I was drowning in, omeprazole for the acid that the steroids caused, and I think about two other medications that I can’t remember. I never want to feel like that again. My oxygen saturation was 82 when I went into hospital, which is very low, and without treatment at that level likely to cause permanent damage to kidneys and other organs. What I’m saying is nobody wants to feel that way, and if people won’t have the vaccine, then we should have vaccine passports to encourage them.

Alegrias1, Surely, you should know, by now, that those who've been vaccinated are far less likely to catch and transmit the virus.

You pose a risk too. So do I. Vaccination doesn't create some kind of anti-infectiousness force field. People who haven't had the vaccine aren't comparable to terrorists, that's a scandalous thing to say. It's ridiculous.

Alegrias1, They pose a risk so why let them go around infecting other people? We don't tolerate drunk drivers, muggers, terrorists etc. do we?