Statement from the BMA on lifting Covid restrictions

LadyWee

Alegrias1

A GP. He's a GP.

And I'll say this - he certainly doesn't understand data. Or maybe he understands how to use selective and misleading statistics to help make his case.

(Sorry UG, I jumped in)

Derogatory somewhat?

Gives the vibe of ‘just a GP’

This attitude stinks

Finally. (Probably) This statement is disingenuous, in my opinion.

This decision clearly is not guided by the data. When Plan B was introduced in December, there were 7,373 patients in hospital in the UK- the latest data this week shows there are 18,9791. Case numbers too are nearly twice as many.

On 8th December when Plan B was introduced, the forecast was that cases would rise dramatically and nobody at the time knew whether the cases would lead to unmanageable numbers of hospitalisations and deaths.

Cases rose dramatically and they didn't lead to unmanageable numbers of hospitalisations.

Now, cases are falling, as are hospitalisations. Although those who are slightly less able to understand the stats will no doubt come and oppose that view.

I'll not argue with his credentials as a GP or a Union leader, but I'll certainly argue with his use of statistics to misrepresent the current situation, because I know about stats.

And by the way, I was saying he was a GP in response to the sarcastic "do you think it was the tea lady" post. Perhaps if you were a bit less intent on defending the honour of your fellow medics you would have appreciated that.

LadyWee

Alegrias1

every single member of the BMA is a doctor, many with decades of experience, specialisation, further training, and more.

No...some of them are students.

Nobody is criticising doctors. But it is the Union who are making these comments, not the individual doctors with all their expertise. Although to be honest, if it was the doctors I know and went to school with, I'm not sure that I would trust their opinion on whether easing the restrictions right now will help or not. I'd certainly trust their opinion on whether I need to go to hospital if I present with a medical issue.

Not true

BMA members are polled on their thoughts regularly regarding these issues. www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/the-hardest-winter

BMA represent students yes, but remember students have been pulled into the pandemic too, often having training disrupted and being asked to do many things out of their remit. Like work on ITU for 12 hours straight turning patients as was asked of many during wave 1.Pretty rough when you are an 18 year old first year - watching death and having no family support to lean on.
Thus have a right to a voice.

I suspect all the colleges will
Follow suite and issue statements. Many have been vocal throughout. The colleges don’t work as a trade union and act as a regulatory body for each speciality.

Your thoughts on the individual doctors you know and were at school with are irrelevant and emotive and hold no substantive argument here.

I do often get a doctor bashing vibe from you on these kind of posts…..

Right, this one.

The BMA are perfectly entitled to make any statements they like that reflect their members views and to canvass the members on what they think. They are a Union, after all. And I have no doubt at all that their members are overworked, and stressed to their limits.

However. They, the Union, do not have the expertise to say whether lifting restrictions will help or hinder the progression of the pandemic. And this statement of theirs is being used to promote a certain view of medics and government.

Some of their members for sure will have the expertise to make comments on the progression of the pandemic, and they should, and probably are, making their views felt via the correct bodies - JCVI maybe, or SAGE. Or a Public Health body.

Doctors Union? Not so much.

LadyWee

Sorry but this is also wrong.

Evidence at the time was a 12 week gap. Doctors wanted to follow the evidence is all. Thought you liked evidence Algerias?

Gov took a punt. It payed off. Might not have done.

Well let's do this one first.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55781860

Astra Zeneca always recommended 8-12 weeks. Pfizer had done their trials at 3 weeks so the belief is that Pfizer had recommended 3 weeks. Which of course they hadn't. They covered their back by saying they hadn't done trials with a longer gap. The JCVI understood that the overall best approach for public health was a delay in the second dose.

The JCVI. Those doctor chaps. Not the doctor's Union.

No punting.

Urmstongran

Medics are super intelligent - nobody is denying that. However, the Union they’ve joined speaks for them. The Union doesn’t canvass it’s members before making pronouncements to the media.

If an issue is big the members will be asked to vote on it.

Otherwise they pay their dues and get represented.

I mean do you all just make this stuff up!

Said with such authority!!!

Losing the will
To live over here….

COI - long-standing doctor with many medics in the family, many still on the frontline, some working in public health, some signed up members of BMA some not…

I will repeat.

BMA represents doctors (members) views. They have been frequently canvassed throughout the pandemic.
Watch for statements from DAUK, the colleges, the trusts on due course…

Please at least have some medical experience before you state these things so knowledgeably

Alegrias1

No, I'm not looking down on him. I'm stating fact. He either doesn't understand that restrictions are imposed while data is on the increase, or he is declining to explain that the imposed restrictions have had their desired effect, that the NHS hasn't collapsed and that there are other effects to consider now.

You can disagree with someone and point out their inconsistencies or weaknesses without looking down on them.

This may be a foreign concept to some, eh GSM?

Define NHS hasn’t collapsed? Interesting! Many on the frontline would disagree….

Alegrias1

A GP. He's a GP.

And I'll say this - he certainly doesn't understand data. Or maybe he understands how to use selective and misleading statistics to help make his case.

(Sorry UG, I jumped in)

Derogatory somewhat?

Gives the vibe of ‘just a GP’

This attitude stinks

Sorry but this is also wrong.

Evidence at the time was a 12 week gap. Doctors wanted to follow the evidence is all. Thought you liked evidence Algerias?

Gov took a punt. It payed off. Might not have done.

M0nica

Kali On eof these highly qualified and experienced doctors, has come out as not being vaccinated and seeing no need to be vaccinated because he is low risk, as a healthy lifestyle. All the arguments many anti-vaxxers use to appear reasonable. Andrew Wakefield was for sometime considered 'highly qualified and experienced, so to be trusted. As was Doctor Roy Meadow, who gave evidence in the trial of Sally Clarke for murdering her three children. She was convicted and only later was it proved they were all cot deaths.

All highly qualified and experienced doctors.

Yes you always have the odd one in any profession that has extremist views.

Doesn’t mean that the overwhelming evidence of a majority are wrong though!

Odd argument! Does that mean because of these few bad ones you don’t ever receive any medical treatment form any doctor in case there are one of these 3odd bods you have named?

Alegrias1

^every single member of the BMA is a doctor, many with decades of experience, specialisation, further training, and more.^

No...some of them are students.

Nobody is criticising doctors. But it is the Union who are making these comments, not the individual doctors with all their expertise. Although to be honest, if it was the doctors I know and went to school with, I'm not sure that I would trust their opinion on whether easing the restrictions right now will help or not. I'd certainly trust their opinion on whether I need to go to hospital if I present with a medical issue.

Not true

BMA members are polled on their thoughts regularly regarding these issues. www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/the-hardest-winter

BMA represent students yes, but remember students have been pulled into the pandemic too, often having training disrupted and being asked to do many things out of their remit. Like work on ITU for 12 hours straight turning patients as was asked of many during wave 1.Pretty rough when you are an 18 year old first year - watching death and having no family support to lean on.
Thus have a right to a voice.

I suspect all the colleges will
Follow suite and issue statements. Many have been vocal throughout. The colleges don’t work as a trade union and act as a regulatory body for each speciality.

Your thoughts on the individual doctors you know and were at school with are irrelevant and emotive and hold no substantive argument here.

I do often get a doctor bashing vibe from you on these kind of posts…..

Urmstongran

Oh come on everyone!
I love unions. I was a fully paid up member of UNISON for years back in the day. They take subscriptions to look after their members interests. Of course they do. To think anything else is disingenuous. They bang the drum against the government of the day to further working conditions and pay for their body of workers’ interests. Obvious innit?

Workers interests. The doctors. Those you need when you are ill. It’s ok to rake your viewpoint but please don’t complain when the treatment you need, or the doctor you need to see, doesn’t happen because they are signed off, the lists are too long or they have left the profession. Sadly you can’t have it both ways. They are people not gods and the unrelenting workload of the last two years is taking its toll.

Of course the BMA will say don’t lift restrictions. They are already hearing from their members that they can’t cope with the current working conditions. Making that workload greater is obviously going to make things worse!

You don’t have to be medically trained to work that one out!

Relevant cartoon

Oh yes. the point is, the BMA does not represent odd views from single medics- but an overall view of medical knowledge.

If I have to trust someone on a medical matter- I will trust the members of the BMA as compared to * from Gransnet, for sure.

Kali On eof these highly qualified and experienced doctors, has come out as not being vaccinated and seeing no need to be vaccinated because he is low risk, as a healthy lifestyle. All the arguments many anti-vaxxers use to appear reasonable. Andrew Wakefield was for sometime considered 'highly qualified and experienced, so to be trusted. As was Doctor Roy Meadow, who gave evidence in the trial of Sally Clarke for murdering her three children. She was convicted and only later was it proved they were all cot deaths.

All highly qualified and experienced doctors.

Please look at the list of the Leading team at the BMA- they are not pen-pushers or admin staff, but all highly qualified and experienced. Their website has a section for Library, and another on News and Opinions (medical N and O)- where the article cited was published.

What is the proportion of medical students in the BMA? And do you know they cannot get full membership, only student membership. Irrelevant anyhow- all members are highly intelligent, and the vast majority are fully qualified with many, often decades of experience and further training. You do realise doctors have to keep up to date, and are regularly assessed to ensure that they are.

Lilac Chaser, how did you become such an optimist?

every single member of the BMA is a doctor, many with decades of experience, specialisation, further training, and more.

No...some of them are students.

Nobody is criticising doctors. But it is the Union who are making these comments, not the individual doctors with all their expertise. Although to be honest, if it was the doctors I know and went to school with, I'm not sure that I would trust their opinion on whether easing the restrictions right now will help or not. I'd certainly trust their opinion on whether I need to go to hospital if I present with a medical issue.

I have a brother who has PhDs in Physics and Maths - I will not trust his 'opinion' on medical matters- but I (and he) will trust those, as MayBeMaw says in the OP, who actually know what they are talking about. Doctors- every single member of the BMA is a doctor, many with decades of experience, specialisation, further training, and more.

Urmstongran

Her maths isn’t that bad Kali2 but to be honest it’s definitely a weak point - which we laughed about.

But the article is NOT about maths - not about maths at all.

Urmstongran

Her maths isn’t that bad Kali2 but to be honest it’s definitely a weak point - which we laughed about.

But the article is NOT about maths - not about maths at all.

Apologies Casdon no I didn’t read the link. I made my response based on the title of the article only - 1:5 doctors etc.

I think that’s a pretty dire reflection, maybe you don’t?
I certainly do Casdon.

I agree there maddyone. Governments have opened our doors and not provided sufficient infrastructure to cope. Not enough housing stock, nurses, dentists either. Not fair on the taxpayer, not fair on the professionals we need.

There is an increasing population Urmstongran which adds up to increasing pressure. And far too few doctors for the patients. And Covid which entailed masses of government directives which they have to read as well as look after patients. A lot of doctors have retired, emigrated, or left for other reasons. They are under pressures that few of the rest of us can understand.

Did you read the article Urmstongran?
‘More than two thirds of doctors (69%) have felt overwhelmed at least once while at work in the past 3 weeks, according to a survey by the Royal College of Physicians (RCP). Some 27.5% of respondents said they had felt overwhelmed once or twice during this period, 21.5% once or twice a week. A fifth (20.5%) said they had felt overwhelmed almost every day.’
I think that’s a pretty dire reflection, maybe you don’t?