The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

Aka, yes it is all so complicated

Correct Anniebach and everything is interlinked. And complicated. I can see both sides of the argument and some very persuasive points put forward from both points of view.

It was only in the ninties did it become a crime for a husband to rape his wife in this country.

Is it so much worse to abort a child because of it's sex than to abort a child because it is inconvenient to our career, or is a financial burden

Two women a week are killed in this country by brutal husbands / partners

We do not have forced marriages but the aristocracy and royals have been practising arranged marriages from the year dot.

These are part of British culture yes ?

This thread is about the niqab not FGM, rape, forced marriage etc. No one is saying they are acceptable. Neither is anyone saying that a woman should be forced to wear the niqab. However I still stand my ground that if a woman chooses to wear a niqab (except in official circumstances which have already been discussed) who are we to stop her. We cannot free one woman from oppression by oppressing another woman.

POGS....You despair of liberal thinking but it was such thinking that gave women equal rights in the first place. Do you really believe you would had equality were it not for liberal thinkers? Was it conservative thinkers who brought in the woman's right to own property, vote or earn equal pay? The very nature of a conservative thinker is to maintain the status quo.

You say, 'There is nobody with any guts to say NO, NO, NO not in my country.' Which version of 'my country' is that....your version, my version or someone else's version.

thatbags.......You say, ' I really can't do those young people justice, but they stressed the multi-faceted aspect of modern Britain and, most of all, tolerance, and fairness and equality before the law.' By banning the niqab the law would not be showing tolerance or fairness to women who choose to wear it. Again I say we cannot free one woman from oppression by oppressing another woman.

Well said POGS.

Quote from the homepage of Karma Nirvana'a website:

'If you’re here to tell us that we can please all cultures without causing the slightest bit of offence - well, frankly, you’ve come to the wrong place'

A organisation stated by a Muslim woman, run by Muslim women for Muslim women. Their voices, not mine.

Britishness will mean different things to different people but I can say what I believe it is not. It is not a country where we stone people, it is not a country where we do not allow women to drive a car, get an education, be executed for having an affair, the list goes on.

We WERE a country where women had succeeded in becoming equal citizens but I despair that Liberal thinking has turned so many of our values upside down.

Surely to goodness not one GN would accept that just because it is another persons 'culture', we must without question, accept that young girls are genitally mutilated, women have an abortion because the unborn infant is a girl, women are the chattel of their husband to be raped and abused sexually and mentally, etc., etc., IN OUR COUNTRY.

Why do I despair? There is nobody with any guts to say NO, NO, NO not in my country. We know girls are being sent for genital mutilation, we know women are having abortions because their unborn is a female, we know girls are being taken abroad for forced marriages, again the list goes on.

We listen to women telling us of their horrendous problems and it is not acceptable to say it is their 'culture' and we should be tolerant of that fact. Women who speak out against the hard-line, masochistic 'culture' they have been born into are brave and I get annoyed that their voices are not heard by some who continue to allow liberal thinking and PC correctness to become the bigger picture and allow 'culture' to be the prominent state of mind.

We too have problems in this country but we do have a judicial system that when these issues arise they are given credence. It is too much of a hot potato for politicians to deal with, it is not PC to talk about religion or another persons 'culture', it is not our business how others live.

Well I despair that it is not a pure and simple rule of law and personal ethics that such things are NOT ACCEPTABLE to any nation irrespective of culture or religion. It is hollow talk when women and children are living such lives to make freedom of speech, cultural differences the God given right to abuse another human being.

If that is what I would like to think being British is, then I will stand by it.

I totally agree that the law of a country needs to apply to all equally. I do not agree with oppression of women, I am an atheist so believe all religious 'rules' are invalid.

However, I will still bang on though about the type of mediation of debates about Muslim practices which encourages anti-muslim groups/individuals to feel that it gives them the 'right' to target women wearing veils/ hijabs /niqabs for verbal and physical abuse.

It isn't anti-muslim to be opposed to niqab in public. It's anti-oppression. I suggest those who think otherwise read some of the excellent articles linked to on this thread. It might improve their understanding of the issue.

vamp, I really can't do those young people justice, but they stressed the multi-faceted aspect of modern Britain and, most of all, tolerance, and fairness and equality before the law.

It is not a twisting of tolerance to be opposed to women being forced to cover their faces and being allowed to keep them covered when no other group of people is allowed to in the same circumstances (e.g. in a criminal court). Allowing exceptions on the grounds of religion is not tolerance, it is giving special treatment instead of sticking to the fair principle of one law for all.

Anniebach in response to your comment about a 15 year old's fear of her family finding out she had given birth, which in turn was a response to an earlier post of mine, I would like to make the following comments.

I agree that it was not very long ago that white british girls were sent away so that these things would be kept secret. As you say, the fear in that case was not of the males in the family but of the family losing social standing. Of course that was wrong and thankfully we have moved on. But I doubt that even those girls feared for their lives.The fear in this case was of a very different order. Do you have any idea what the sanctions might be for that young woman and her mother from within her own community? As I also said, I have worked with a number of girls who have come forward because they are in fear of so called honour killings. Karma nirvana give figures on their website of the numbers of young women they deal with on a weekly basis and they are shocking. Saying that we as a society didn't used to be much better is to completely miss the point of what is going on right under our noses.

I am not anti Muslim, I have Muslim friends and colleagues who are very willing to discuss these issues openly and we can respect each other' viewpoints. We very often agree, but if we don't that's not a problem. I disagree with my friends on any number of issues. As I have said several times, and I'm bored with repeating myself now, I am more concerned about the girls and women who don't have the freedom to express a view. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown says it much better than me.

I like that riverwalk,

So what did they say? How did they define Britishness?

Nice comment, riverwalk. He's so right.

All this anti-Muslim/niqab hysteria has reminded me of an Irish comedian on Radio 4 some months back who said something like ....

'I love Muslims me, they've taken the heat off the Irish - we are now those little friendly green people who do Riverdance and make Guinness'.

Some excellent debaters, third and fourth years from Glasgow High School, did at our district Rotary conference last weekend. Defining "Britishness", they were bloody brilliant!

Can someone answer the 'What is British culture?' question. I've asked several times and now Anniebach has.

Why do we demand everyone conforms to our culture ? We certaintly haven't a good track record of confirming to the cultures of other countries where we choose to live/work .

What of women of the Jewish faith? I am speaking of the more authordox Jew, they do not sit with the men when at the synagogues, do not switch on the tv/radio or answer the telephone or cook on their Sabbath. Are these women being denied these freedoms to do as they wish or are they doing what they wish?

as for a fifteen year old being feared of her family finding out she had given birth, only as far back as the sixties we were sending young girls to 'stay with aunts' for six months , not fear of the males in the family, fear of the neighbours gossip and our standing at the WI, Golf Club etc.

I think many Muslim women are now choosing to wear the niqab as an external display of ' I am a Muslim' and not from fear or oppression.

And I too ask, just what is British culture?

We should all be supporting her - she will come under a lot of pressure for this article which is spot on.

She just says it all

Excellent article. She is a brave woman.

Liberal defenders of the veil have lost their way, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.

Nfk

I needed to lighten up a bit, if you'll pardon the pun.

I don't think so Nfk, although I am someone that tends to give way to people anyway [eg if someone walks into me I'm the one who apologises and I give way to so many cars when I'm driving it's a wonder I ever get anywhere].

Their cigarettes would set them on fire.

I wonder why men dont wear the niqab!

Tegan Did you give way to him?