The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

Two wrongs don't make a right. If we ban the wearing of the niqab then we might free those who are wearing against their will but we then oppress those who wish to wear it.

I don't have the wisdom of Solomon so I don't know the answer just stating an awkward fact.

There is the other view of course that the wearing of the niqab allows the woman to be judged on what she does rather than what she looks like......just throwing this one in

vampirequeen - i feel your question about why some of us are concerned that not all women who chose to cover themselves totally are doing so without pressure to confirm has been answered a number of times. (posts, including mine, about the pressure on feminists in the 70's to conform to oppressive beliefs practiced by a small number, with a big voice)

With regard to your question about the possible links between the expectation that women/girls will cover their hair/bodies/faces and sexual, emotional or physical abuse of women. It's my believe that in any community where women and children are subjugated, abuse is more likely. In any society, it is very difficult for children to talk about abuse, and where women are also excluded from any power or life outside the family, it seems to be it's much less likely that children will be able to approach their mothers, family friends, teachers, or other possibly supportive adults for help. Domestic abuse is also more likely to be hidden in some communities, or accepted as normal.
I don't intend to appear either racist, anti male or inflammatory and I appreciate Vampire's comments about a woman's right to chose what she wears. But - it's all about the extent of choice. That applies equally to young men and women from the indigenous british population, who tend to wear too few clothes in the summer and the winter, drink too much and fight when under the influence. That's a whole other topic, but I don't feel these undoubted problems mean that we're excluded from discussing any of these taxing problems that face us all

I was walking round Ikea a few years ago and a man was wandering round with several women a few steps behind him wearing the niqab. What struck me was that [Ikea being a rather crowded place where it's difficult not to almost bump into people] whenever we were in the same area I was aware that he expected me to give way to him. I don't think I imagined it, especially as it happened ages ago and has stuck in my mind [and bothered me] ever since.

One more point - we will not hear women who are subjugated speaking out about their experiences, for obvious reasons. At least not until after they have escaped their circumstances. An excellent source to hear their voices is the website of Karma Nirvana, a wonderful organisation which was founded by an inspirational woman. I am proud that this started in my local area (though I have nothing to be proud of; I can't claim any credit).

Sorry cut myself off there. Anyway, suffice it to say that these things are happening in this country and that is why I feel more need to look for ways to support these girls and women than their more liberated sisters who choose to wear the niqab.

The problem is that even in the uk where we take our freedoms for granted there are groups in society that do not enjoy those freedoms. How can we possibly know that all women who wear the niqab, or even the hijab, are doing so of their own free will when we know of the pressures they are subject to within their own communities? I have worked with very young girls who as in fear of their lives from so called honour killings; I have taken a new born baby into care at the request of his 15 year old mother and her mother, both of whom were terrified of anyone in their community finding out about his existence. It spoke volumes that the girl had lived a completely sheltered (imprisoned) life and neither she nor her mother would say who was the father of the baby. Their terror in the delivery room was palpable. I drew my own conclusions but was powerless to help them. These are only two examples of situations I have dealt with in my career and this is why I feel so str

I take your point BAnanas but this thread was about the UK. What happens in other countries is down to them. We are a country that prides itself on our freedom to choose what to wear, say and think. If we start to limit that freedom by banning the niqab (other than in certain circumstances) we damage ourselves as well as the women concerned.

I found quite a few compelling reasons on there that I hadn't thought of.

when I have only just read your link, and it's excellent. Thank you.

My point about ex pats living in say Saudi, I was drawing a comparison between living in a place where you would be expected to live by a very strict set of rules and our own country where very few rules apply as far as dress codes are concerned. It doesn't hurt me to see someone's face covered I feel sad for them, at best it looks sinister and in the worst case scenario of the burka it just reduces the wearer to a walking marquee, completely incongruous here, even more so when accompanied by a male wearing very little should the weather be hot.

When I was in Israel I had made a point of covering my legs but inadvertently forgot to cover my lower arms when walking in the Arabic area of Jerusalem, I was asked if I could do this and was only too happy to wear my husband's jacket to comply. It wouldn't have occurred to ask "how are my arms hurting anyone" Different societies have different perceptions of what is acceptable.

It would be a very un-British thing to bring in a law about what people should or shouldn't wear and I think it would be about as likely as bringing in a law that says that the Prime Minister should stand at the dispatch box with a bucket on his head. Quite right too (not the bucket).

Individuals may like, dislike or remain indifferent to the niquab, short skirts, onesies, school uniform, bikinis, salwar kameez, saris or Ugg boots. Things and attitudes inevitably change with time.

I will say again, although I'm getting bored of repeating myself, I think women should remove the veil in official circumstances such as courts or passport control and in workplaces that require face to face conversations. I don't believe that a woman should be obliged to show her face in the street, shops, on the bus or anywhere else that she doesn't choose to. How does it hurt you if you walk past someone in the street and can't see their face? I have problems with making eye contact. Should I be forced to look straight at people simply because my lack of eye contact makes them feel uncomfortable?

As for Catholics in Saudi surely that's for another thread as we're not discussing Saudi treatment of other faiths but whether women should be allowed to wear the niqab in the UK.

This article actually talks to rather than about niqab wearing women www.vice.com/en_uk/read/the-great-niqab-debate?utm_source=vicetwitter

Here here Eleothan! Couldn't agree more. The whole country seems to be going mad over this! Why?!!!

It almost starts to smack of racism.

I dont think people should be arrested for wearing it, just don't whine about being asked to remove it so people can see your face - 80% of language is not spoken, or expect to wear it when seeking employment that is person centred - its a choice

I think we should concentrate on areas where women and girls are being beaten or sexually abused and mutilated. And, as I've said before, the circumcision of babies and young boys is also a physical assault which nobody seems too keen to legislate against, or even examine.

Goodness knows, we have a very poor record in preventing, or bringing prosecutions against the perpetrators of FGM (or the rape of women in all communities). Why involve police time in preventing the wearing of an item of clothing which the supposed "victim" may have chosen to wear?

Anyone in favour of a woman's right to wear the burka/niqab please confirm whether they would extend this right to public places, if so, should the law be changed to allow motorbike riders the right to wear their visors in a public place, or indeed anyone who wants to wear a mask of any sort?, as surely it would only be fair to accommodate everybody's right to cover their face should this be their preference.

Ex pats who choose to live in a different cultures have to get their head around the fact there are things that they are simply not allowed to do. Such as having a drink, holding hands in public, wearing what they like or practicing their religion. I have read about Catholic Filipinos living in Saudi who covertly held a mass in someone's home and were punished severely. The right to practice one's religion is a basic human right. I think we are all aware of the consequences of breaking some of the morality codes that prevail in the more liberal Dubai and yet we tie ourselves in knots trying to please all of the people all of time. Should a small minority's wishes override the wishes of the majority so these personal freedoms can be granted which are greatly at odds with our society for a multitude of reasons?

I don't agree with the French policy of arresting women for wearing a burka or niqab in the street, but I do think that everyone should be made to uncover their face in a public place for security reasons, this is not unreasonable given the times we are living in.

A vast majority of the general public would not wish to be dealt with by a doctor/nurse/teacher etc. with a face covering. How would their wishes be met? if it was decided that women should be allowed to cover their face at work, particularly if they are dealing with the general public.

I don't understand how they're being oppressed. It's just the uniform. They don't keep their faces covered in the classroom so it's not going to affect their learning. Their parents must agree so we can assume the mother covers her face but we don't know that she doesn't do it out of choice.

What does the current non-Muslim fashion of wearing very short skirts and revealing tops teach female and male children?

Don't know how that happened!

I think there is a big difference between enforcing a strict school uniform and requiring a female child to cover herself completely apart from her eyes. What on earth is that saying to the female and male children in that school? The child may not like it but she can hardly decide to change schools. One must assume that her parents accept the requirement and to my mind this is evidence that some girls in this country are subject to oppression and indoctrination from an early age

I have no knowledge of any woman being forced to wear the niquab but I do have experience of women, who wear the niquab, whose lives are very much controlled by their husbands. At one time I was a volunteer home tutor for immigrants who spoke little or no English. In some cases, family responsibility prevented a mother from attending a class, but in others, she was prevented from doing so because her husband did not want her mixing with other women from other countries and especially from the UK. It was important that these women could talk to teachers, doctors, shopkeepers, etc. so they were allowed a home tutor. I even took one woman through all the language she would need when giving birth.

I read the article, nightowl. I would refer you to my post regarding faith schools and also add that most faith and secular secondary schools have a strict uniform rule. This is just an extension of that. If you don't like the uniform then go to another school.

Even the government back the school uniform rules.

The head teacher can discipline your child for not wearing the school uniform. Your child can only be suspended or expelled if they repeatedly ignore the uniform rules. https://www.gov.uk/school-uniform

I don't like the way schools have brought back the collar, tie and blazer but that's just my personal opinion and I wouldn't expect a school not to be allowed to have them as part of the uniform.

From Counil of ex-Muslims site. 100 reasons why I don't wear a niqab:

www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16771.0;wap2

thatbags' link about 11 year old girls being forced to wear the niqab in school is one piece of evidence that this is not always a free choice vampirequeen

Also could someone please answer my post about British culture?

I am an abuse survivor. Can someone please explain the link between what women in the UK choose to wear and sexual, physical and psychological abuse because I can't see it.

Why is choosing to cover your face in public a 'ghastly act'? How does it infringe on someone else's rights? No one on this thread has suggested that a woman should hide her face in official circumstances or where security is concerned but I don't see why she has to show her face to anyone in the street if she chooses not to.

I keep asking for someone to point me in the direction of evidence that proves that some women in the UK are forced to wear the niqab. Up to now no one has offered that evidence. In fact my requests have been ignored. As no one is prepared/able to provide evidence that some women in the UK are forced to wear the niqab I can only assume that they are using this argument to mask (no pun intended) the fact that they want the niqab banned because it offends their personal taste and not the more altruistic act of freeing women from tyranny.