The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

I suppose what concerns me more than the right of women to wear the burqa or niqab if that is their choice, is the question of what we in this country can do to support those women who would choose not to wear it but feel compelled to do so. Any suggestions?

susieb It is insulting to imply that those who have a different opinion from your own are in any way in favour of, or colluding with, acts of violence against women and children.

I - and I'm sure other GNrs who have a view different from your own - most certainly do not support FGM (or the forced circumcision of young males), paedophilia or the physical and/or psychological abuse of women and children.

If motorbike rider has to remove his/her visor to enter a public building then it wouldn't seem unreasonable to ask anyone wearing a face covering to do the same thing. Laws should be uniform otherwise people quite rightly perceive them to be unfair.

I wouldn't want to see the French approach whereby a woman could be arrested for walking about the street with a niqab or burka, although I agree with bags' post, I also find them a misogynist monstrosity. I don't think a blanket statement of "someone's right" to do something can be upheld if it presents too great a problem to the rest of society. We know about the criminal who shot the policewoman and fled the country in a burka, that would be one example of why a burka should not be allowed in a public place.

One person's perceived right is another person's infringement of their rights. Some people think it's their right to genitally mutilate their children and some people believe it should be their right to have sex with children. Surely the law is there to protect society from the ghastly practices that some would seek to inflict on others.

What would happen if in time, as things evolve, we all ended up wearing burkas? Imagine if you will all High streets, supermarkets, villages and city's How would we identify each other, would we not all become isolated under our sheets

It is a cultural garment. not a religious one - the cultures that have promoted wearing it opress women - they hung a 15 year old for being raped for goodness sake ! Frankly, if their men cannot be trusted not to molest and attack women that allow their faces to be seen, then perhaps they should have culturally made all men wear chastity devices

I know I will be shouted down ( even though I made the daily mail because I stood up for Muslims against a bigoted Councillor) but I firmly believe if you choose to live in a western christian society, you should dress and respect the culture here, and the weather - we dont need to wear loose fitting baggy clothes ITS FREEZING, please don't expect us to change our laws to accommodate you , its a choice - wear a turban, or die a motorbike with a crash helmet, veil your face and don't expect to work in a person centred environment

If we say we support the
veil , as it s'cultural' perhaps we should support FGM as well? ..........

I'm sticking up for the right of women to wear the niqab. That doesn't make me a do gooder. I will stick up for the right of a woman to wear anything she chooses to wear. It's not a point of making me feel good.

Can someone explain to me what constitutes British culture? That would be wholly British culture of course, not something we have adopted from immigrants and invaders over the centuries so you can't count anything that we have adopted in the 2000 years since we became part of the Roman Empire.

We'd have to change our language too. No Latin, Greek, French, Scandanavian or German influenced words.

Then of course there is our numerical system. That was developed by Muslims and adopted by us so we can't use that.

Religion? Well we can't follow Christianity or any monotheistic faith because that would mean we'd adopted a middle eastern religion.

I ask again....what is British culture? It's spoken about as if it's something set in stone but it can't be as we've been invaded and settled many times.

Yes, I've met several jewish women who wear a wig to conceal their own hair. Many cultures and religions seem to have a thing about women's hair.

Eloethan don't a lot of strict Jewish ladies cover their hair when out by using a wig?

Magnanimous dictators are few and far between, and when they die, their successors are seldom as magnanimous.

I was born in South Shields, next to the River Tyne, in the 40s and 50s it was a very busy seaport, there was an area there that was called "The Arab Quarter" for no other reason than most of the men were seamen and worked on the docks. I remember being taken there with my dad as a small child, there were many ladies mostly sitting outside the front doors with a different dress code to what I was used to, not one of them wore a burka, just brightly coloured dresses with scarfs on their heads which I thought were lovely. Unbeknown to me as a child because of this area people born in South Shields were nicknamed "The Sand Dancers".
As far as I know the first purpose built Mosque in the UK was built there and opened by Mohammed Ali, Still no burkas.
I went to Tunisia a long time ago on holiday The ladies all wore beautiful kaftans and head scarfs except for a few Bedouin ladies who had just come of the Sahara to do their washing in a river, they wore them to protect themselves from the stinging desert sand. The next time I saw burkas was when a Rolls Royce pulled up outside Harrods, a couple of ladies (i think) got out with their minders to do a spot of shopping. The point I am Trying to make is that this is not a religion thing, its man made by inadequate men

To compare, as the lawyer did, the outfits worn by the Ku Klux Klan with that of the niqab is, I think, ridiculous. The purpose of the KKK's "uniform" was to conceal their identity since they carried out terrorist acts against black people and their supporters. People wearing motorcycle helments do so for a specific purpose, and to wear a cycle helmet when one is not on a motorcycle is not required by law, or resulting from a cultural norm or religious belief.

Before anyone states that the koran does not require the form of dress adopted by these women, all religions are open to interpretation. Most christian people are willing to undergo a blood transfusion but jehovah's witnesses interpret the bible in such a way that they are not. The church of England and catholic church have difficulties with women holding certain positions within the church. Some jewish people have a very strict interpretation of their scriptures and dress and behave very differently from other jewish people. What the majority have in common is their unwillingness to treat women as equals.

It appears that a great deal of the comments in favour of criminalising the wearing of a niqab arise because of the posters' own feelings about it, rather than as a genuine concern for the women who wear them. These women are, supposedly, responsible for making someone else feel "exposed, vulnerable and intimidated", their form of dress equated with "voyeurism", their actions described as "bloody stupid", "bad mannered" "anti social" and as "unsuitable" for the so-called caring professions. In the face of this kind of hostility, is it any wonder that muslim people withdraw even further from a society that treats them with such disdain?

The idea that we should have a "magnanimous dictator who will rid us of the things that are not of our culture" I find truly worrying. Who decides what behaviour is "of our culture" and therefore permissible, and what steps should be taken to "rid" us of such behaviour?

deserving I'm sure they are vital garb when the sandstorms hit Tower Hamlets. Make allowances

Couldn't be bothered reading the vast majority of what has been posted,so forgive me if what I say has already been written.
It's nothing to do with religion it's a cultural thing, and a snub to us mainly by a younger militant, group who are testing us and finding out if the bulldog has got any teeth remaining. They are supported by the "do gooders"who feel so magnanimous sticking up for all in sundry,agreeing with any action they take, claiming it is their right. What we really need is a "magnanimous" dictator who will rid us of the things that are not of our culture. ( Don't tell me we are multicultural, we have pockets of alien culture ) Just wondered if I could post this without swearing, Thus creating a furore like what happened on another post.
Did read one of the first, about the women walking behind their husbands, all that changed when land mines proliferated, they now walk in front.Thought that was good too,"We cannot bury our heads in the sand...."another good, if dangerous way of concealing your identity.

If you work in a faith school you have to be sympathetic to certain beliefs even if you don't actually believe in them. A Catholic school requires teachers to attend and participate in prayers and mass. It's brought up at interview that you will be expected to support the faith and follow Church teachings and traditions.

If you work in a 'born again' school you have to teach Creationism if it's on the curriculum and ignore evolution. Some 'born again' schools don't even use the National Curriculum but use the fundamentalist Accelerated Christian Education system http://www.christian-education.org/

As with all faith schools if you feel you can't accept the extra requirements that go with teaching in them then don't work there.

By the way the NUT is anti all faith schools so I tend to take what they say with a pinch of salt.

Has anyone seen or heard anything said/written by the teachers themselves rather than the views of outsiders?

vampire queen I think it would be extremely naive of me to think all of these women are wearing the niqab (and occasionally a burqa) of their own free will, without pressure from their religious teachings, cultural norms, and community and religious leaders. There has been a huge ncrease in the numbers of women wearing a niqab and in the areas I know it is my belief that these are largely women who have recently arrived in the uk and may have come from countries where women have no choice other than to wear the niqab (or burqa). This is an example of what i am talking about

www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/burqa-refusal-led-to-death-threats-1.1402262#.Uj1lqGS9LTo

My evidence comes from 30+ years of working with people from all sections of society in inner city areas. I am not claiming to have a complete knowledge of how such women feel but I can claim to have a familiarity with how the communities operate and how many women have extremely limited choices.

thatbags has posted a link above about children as young as 11 being forced to wear the niqab in Muslim schools. Here is another link about the experiences of female teachers and female children in a Muslim school very close to me

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426626/Female-teachers-Islamic-school-sign-contract-agreeing-wear-headscarf-theyre-NOT-Muslim.html

These are examples of what is happening in this country. We cannot bury our heads in the sand and say that all Muslim women have free choices about whether to wear the burqa or niqab even here. Many young, intelligent, free thinking Muslim women do, but how many more are there who have a very different experience.

Was not the niqab once known as the yasmak. To me and surely here in the western world covering your face or wearing a mask outside of a medical proceedure means you are about to commit a crimal act and just don't want to be recognised and therefore caught and punished. You can't to import a foriegn culture and expect immediate acceptance by the indigience population. The old adage is still relevant 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' or put it another way blend in, don't make youself unnecessarily conspicuous.

The propaganda that veil-wearing women are subjected to is oppressive. A norm has been set and positively re-framed so they would be seen as awkward not to go along with it. My Muslim friend wears a scarf, has done since starting at high school. She whips it off as she gets through the front door, as she says it annoys her, but she can't be bothered changing now as she would have to explain herself too many times. She says that many veil-wearing women continue to do so for the same reason - choosing to be different sets them apart and they don't want the hassle.

Nightowl.....what evidence do you have for your belief that some of the women are not wearing the niqab of their own free will.

I asked in an earlier post for evidence that women in the UK are forced to wear the niqab. No one pointed me towards any so I'm led to assume that the evidence doesn't exist and people are against the niqab due to a personal dislike rather than wishing to free women from oppression.

Same here in my part of the country night owl. The number of women who we are a full veil, burkha etc is increasing.

The point made by penstomon about the pressure within the women's movement in the 70's to avoid makeup and bras extended to relationships with men, and 'serious' debates about the age at which boy children should be excluded from wimin's meetings. I The experience of being expected to conform to norms that I wasn't comfortable with was unpleasant. Eventually, I took myself off to a less oppressive group. How much harder is it for women within communities that are already somewhat marginalised, to make genuine, informed choices. I do not mean to patronise or offend muslim women in the midst of this argument but I'm relieved it's taking place in a more open, and less offensive manner than could have been the case.

You would see many women wearing a niqab in an area of the city near to me NannaAnna, and even more in a neighbouring city. They are not visitors to the country and I don't believe they are all wearing it of their own free will.

I hate the sight of these garments and what they stand for. I can't agree that it is right for any woman to freely embrace a garment that is a symbol of misogyny and oppression, and one that other women are forced to wear.

I have very, very rarely seen any Muslim woman in this country wearing the Niqab and I don't think I've ever seen a Burka!
Whenever I've seen the Niqab I've assumed they are visitors to the UK.
The Hijab is a different matter. As others have said, Hijab means 'modesty' and applies to Muslim men as well as women. Hijab for women means covering the hair and the chest It does NOT mean covering the face.
I have seen a couple of TV reports with Hijabi medical practitioners covering their mouths and noses with one side of their head scarf whilst talking to reporters, but in the normal course of a day this is not the norm.
I have lived in the Middle East and the interpretation of Hijab runs the whole gamut from Niqab to spray on jeans and skimpy tops!! (Well, maybe the latter is not an interpretation of Hijab in any way a Muslim cleric would endorse, but the women considered themselves to be good Muslims!!)
Contrary to popular mis-conception, in Saudi Arabia non-Muslim women are NOT expected to cover up, but the Muttawah (religious police) can take exception to almost anything! More than once I was rapped on the ankles for wearing an 'indecent' long skirt with a loose long-sleeved shirt over a T-shirt and a broad-brimmed hat! That's just the Muttawah though, not the official policy.
Before railing against the wearing of Niqabs and Burkas, please make sure you know what is what:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=burqa+niqab+hijab&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=bdU8UqBvq5jRBZ2ZgbAG&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1253&bih=620&dpr=1

I previewed my post. Corrected the typos and deleted the last sentence...and hit post. No reason for my preview to be posted?????

How did that happen?

People should wear whatever they want to wear. It should not be dictated by religion, culture, misogyny, western prejudices and fear, ideas of decency and taste, etc.
What gives anyone the right to say what is acceptable and what is not?

Culture travels and is assimilated and learned from.

Greek culture was assimilated by the Romans who then spread their version of civilisation across the then known world.

Many words in the English language have come to us courtesy of the Vikings, the Angles and Saxons and the Norman French who came here with their languages and cultures.

And lets not forget the Scottish, Irish and Welsh input from more recent generation.

We eat foods that were not native to England such as rabbit. Then of course there are the myriad of 'foreign' foods like curry, tapas, pizza and pasta.

We listen to music from around the world. Where would we be without jazz, blues and reggae? I love the sound of a digeridoo (although I admit it's not to everyone's taste).

Even Christianity is derived from a 2000 year old middle eastern offshoot of Judaism.

FGM is a different matter altogether but again we need to educate as well as campaign against it.