The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

sorry last comments were in response to Penstemmon's post about Algerian couple.

VQ has asked for validation of claims that Muslims were forced to wear niqab - I offered my second hand experiences.

Did not think that my thoughts were unreflective - however brief points can be ambiguously understood and thoughtful posts may seem overlong.

How sensible to have a conversation and to discuss and exchange viewpoints.

I suspect that most people have insufficient knowledge of Islam and are too afraid of being accused of racism to be able to speak up. I think not engaging with the issues is a form of discrimination and just as bad.

I'm pretty sure that the local schools don't permit the niqab, and I see these Mums on the school run - so presumably they know that their daughters will have to remove the niqab when they start school.

I had enough trouble getting my daughter to wear her glasses to school

No point posting anymore..am too depressed by the lack of reflection.

On BBC News this morning they had a woman wearing a niqab who was defending the wearing of the niqab in much about the same way some on here have posted.

Her name was Shalina Litt and she said she was a 'Child Behaviour Consultant'. When asked about her job she said it was not a problem because she didn't wear the niqab when she was with her clients. .

I am sorry that was a mixed message to me. Even though she was defending strongly the wearing of the niqab, was she not admitting it was not appropriate on certain occasions?.

I have to say I found the entire interview horrible, seeing only her eyes and no facial emotion. For all I knew it was Yasmin AB testing us all.

I have never seen a small child in a niqab but did have two girls from Algeria whose parents asked if they could wear a hijab to school (infants)
I met with them and said that I knew it was not a requirement of Islam for such young girls to wear a scarf. They said they would not in Algeria but were worried if they did not get into the habit early they might refuse as they got older. I managed to persuade them it was not necessary .

Until just a few years ago my mother taught English as foreign language in a secondary school and all of her students were Muslim and had arrived in Britain post primary school.

These children were adapting to British culture and also learning how to practice their faith in Britain. One of the difficulties of Ramadan for example, is that we have long daylight hours in Summer and school terms during Ramadan.

Another shock was learning to adopt the headscarf. These children complained that they didn't wear the veil at home, that their family back home would be horrified. They said that they were told by UK Muslims "you're in Britain now, in Britain we wear the Headscarf"

Where I live I see no more than half a dozen Muslim families wearing burkhas/headscarves/niqabs. I have no idea whether it is choice or oppression for the adults. But I am horrified by the tiny tots wearing a niqab. Some of the children in pushchairs are wearing niqabs for goodness sake.

Iam64, I did not bring the subject of abortion to this thread and I too fought to have abortion legalised . Do explain why is it wrong to abort a female child but not wrong to abort a child because one has conceived at an inconvenient time in ones career. If you are offend by my stating that this happens in this country then offended you will have to be because it happens.

Kenan Malik, Beyond the veil, in which he argues that "the debate is much more than about a handful of women (in Western countries at least) donning the face veil. It is about how we conceive of freedom and liberties, values and identity. It is our difficulties in thinking through some of these issues that makes the burqa such a potent symbol on both sides of the debate."

Another good article by someone who is not in favour of an outright ban.

Anniebach - I find your comments about abortion insensitive and inflammatory. The right to abortion if the mother's mental/physical health was at risk was a hard fought battle.
I know a number of women who have made the very painful decision to have an abortion. I don't know any woman who has made the decision easily, and without heart searching, guilt and loss.

Like most people, I'm distressed when men/women don't make responsible choices about contraception - but to conflate that with a decision to abort any child who isn't male is simply wrong.

No-one on this thread is defending oppression of any kind. Britain's imperial past is something we all share and try to make sense of. I've seen no-one suggesting that history isn't relevant to the discussion about the niqab.

Make that five (in agreement) BAnanas.

Oh just had a thought I probably have at least four people, possibly more, who strongly disagree with me, so I wont bask, I'll reflect instead!

Thanks Bags, Sel, POGS, Jane, I don't think I have had four people agree almost simultaneously with me before, must be a first, I shall bask in that for the rest of the day!

I bow to your greater knowledge of revolting behaviour, pen.

vamp, I have not specified the need to see someone's face when just walking down the street. I, and others, have specified particular instances quite different from that where we think seeing a face matters.

I don't know really whether I'm in favour of banning niqab in public places completely. Probably not. But I think parents/carers shouldn't be allowed to make little girls cover their faces. And I don't think niqab should be allowed in schools.

baNanas - respect.

I agree banning the niqab would stop women being forced to wear it but again I say that would be oppressing women who choose to wear it (other than in the places and circumstances we've previously discussed).

How does it hurt you if a woman is walking down the street wearing a niqab? Why do you need to see her face if she's just a stranger walking by? Do you attempt to read the face of everyone you see even fleetingly in the street? If I noticed someone staring at my face as I walked by my paranoia would go into overdrive lol.

My argument for why not both is because when you focus on the manifestations, such as the veil etc it adds fuel to the fire of the rabid right who whip up fear and hatred.

I have had very distressed families to try to comfort and reassure who have been targeted by the likes of EDL/BNP/NF etc having had shit posted in letterboxes, veils pulled off, kids spat on etc. These incident increase when there is a major press/media focus on issues such as we are discussing now.

I really think they can be red herrings and by focusing energy on the cause may have a more long lasting impact.

Nobody keeps their midge head net on in court, or on the bus, or in school, etc, etc, etc.

Besides, you can see through them. Bad analogy.

"Campaign on generic equality for women not the symptoms of inequality".

Hmm. Good point.

But why not both?

That aside, I think the main (possibly only) difference between our views on niqab, pen, is that I do have an issue with face-covering, even when it is by choice, unless there is a good practical reason for it. In this country, there are good practical reasons not to do it (except in extreme weather such as a snow storm) as well as good social reasons.

I had an anti midge hood that was a bit like a niqab. That was the fault of you Scots and your wretched midges!

They must be a wonderful deterrent to invading Scotland between May and October. Last time I went was a very pleasant midge free March.

BAnanas

Good post.

BAnanas that was a brilliant post. You've said everything I would have done if I had the time. I have no problem adhering to another countries required dress when visiting why on earth should we accept something so alien to our society here? The only time you used to see the niquab in London was during the summer when the wealthy Arabs arrived to escape the heat. Very sharp elbowed ladies in their shopping habits. Take a walk now in parts of London and even wearing normal Western clothes one feels somehow brazen.

If it was completely banned by law then no male could force their women to impede and alienate themselves. No statement could be made to the rest of us.

Completely agree too about the security issues in any public place.

I say again my issue is not with face covering if it is a choice. So few people choose to do it! Out of proportion energy in discussing. Campaign on generic equality for women not the symptoms of inequality.

Oh bugger!

Still, you follow the idea, no doubt.

I'll rewrite that:

Several of us have said, several times, that it's not the black sack clothing that's the problem. It's not the hair covering that's the problem. It's the face-covering. If anyone really thinks face-covering within our species–for no adequate reason such as necessary protection from the elements– is justified within our species, then I'm truly and utterly amazed and cannot fathom their reasoning at all.

Sorry
If anyone thinks face-covering...[all the rest of my sentence]... is justified...