Gender neutrality 'hen'

Some of these posts horrify me a little. If any of you have the time, perhaps you could watch this?

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04knbny/horizon-20142015-7-is-your-brain-male-or-female

Because children see their parents from an early age doing gender-specific things, girls being steered into safer activities, boys sent off to be more active and persuaded to be more ambitious in every area from a scarily young age, our brain is so capable of moulding itself to fit the lifestyle taught to it that gender-specific toys are 'learnt' as a baby.

The Swedes gave 400 days free and fully paid leave to parents, all parents no matter their earnings or length of residence. They found at first that like most dads everywhere, the dads preferred to get back to work because they soon got bored. So they changed the ruling and now the time has to be divided equally. as result, it was discovered that the fathers bonded far, far better with their children and mothers had to let go and let the partners take over. As a result, quite a few fathers became stay-at-home dads, although in a country where most parents work that is still a scarcity, but at least dads no longer get funny looks when they take the babies to playgroups.

DS says he gets so fed up with mothers and grandmothers at parent evenings consoling their daughters when their maths marks aren't too good with 'Never mind, I wasn't any good at maths either'. He said the fact is, fewer girls are encouraged to do maths, the mothers are only usually able to help with creative, and language homeworks and the fathers are raely to be found at homework time - but he can see that the girls are every bit as good as the boys, they slide behind because they lose confidence in their ability and it certainly isn't from lack of his boosting it up.

So, what I THINK I am trying to say is - if we had a truly equal world where both sexes can be equally as good at everything apart from having babies (as the research in the programme shows, as even spatial ability problems can be solved just as well by women if shown another way to solve them) then what is the need for different titles?
When a science class was questioned as to their impression of a scientist, they all said a MALE in a white coat. How depressing. How 50s.

I think the Swedish idea is silly, but as Jings says, it's an age thing. I missed out on the gender equality movement but my sister, 10 years younger than me, is very keen on it (at least I think she is, she could be reading this!)
We had boys and girls and they all liked getting muddy outside, climbing trees etc. I think the favourite thing of the boys was baking, and of the girls, sport.

#choccycakesthesedays

My DD s liked mud pies - cooking.

Yes. But she is only six. You wait Cari!

(I have actually been thinking about your DD as being an exception to my take on this ) #twitter

Girls like digging out fire pits too. At least, the girls I know and knew do and did. I took cubs on lots of walks. It was always the girls who got wettest and muddiest. Not that the boys didn't also get wet and muddy but it just 'happened' to them whereas the girls got wet and muddy deliberately. The only child who minded getting muddy was a boy. Mind you he never complained again after I told him to 'wash' his hands with wet grass and dry them on his trousers.

Parents with any sense put thick towels on their car seats when they came to collect. Nobody ever complained so I guess they all had sense.

I'll shut up now.

I bought a whole load of loom bands for nine year old. He brought them back on Sunday and told me I could have them.

Some little girl will be delighted next time her mum is in Oxfam.

Of course, some toys are gender neutral. Thinking of Furbies for example, and Build-a-Bear goes on appealing to some boys (long may it continue).

*Bags - you say, " some people seem to think it's odd if a little boy wants to push a pram." No. I don't think they do. Not a little boy. Surely most of them do that. But I don't think you get many seven or eight year olds pushing dolls' prams. By then they are out digging firepits in the garden and devising ways to make the bike ramps higher and higher.

They do still like their cuddlies on the quiet, of course.

It's an age thing.

My two grandsons had the usual kitchens, dolls' pushchairs, etc. mostly given to them by me. I actually wanted so much to buy one of them a dolls' house when we visited a place specialising in them and he fell in love with them. His dad wouldn't let me. Probably quite right too. The enjoyment wouldn't have lasted long enough.

I do know where you are coming from Bags, but this idea has been knocking around for such a long time. I remember giving DD2 lorries and suchlike. She never really played with them, just wanted her barbie dolls.

Eventually most of the girls turn out to like the usual feminine stuff and the boys like the boy things. (except for cooking, of course, but that is gender neutral anyway)

When my DGS started school last year, he was very disappointed when told that he could not wear a skirt and tights, but had to wear trousers instead. His favourite game is dressing up, and he always wants to be either Cinderella or Snow White. (Perhaps it's the influence of his older sister).

My children had a mother who muddled through, and they seem to have turned out okay sometimes I think it was despite me, not because of me.

Where I lived as a child most of the children were boys. I grew up playing gangsters and cowboys and Indians. My DM did 'import' a girl or two to try to bring out my feminine side - and largely failed. When we moved there weren't many children and we ganged together in a mixed group. Somehow I managed to stay passably feminine while still able to discuss car mechanics with the blokes.

When I had my own DC, like Nanabelle, they played with whatever they liked. DD1 loved little cars, DD2 played with everything and DS charged around with the (yellow) dolls pram. All seemingly grew up well balanced and practical. (Now DGS is learning to walk with that same dolls pram.)

I agree with Nanabelle's post. So much of this gender stuff is down to big business. I hate the way everything is bright pink or baby blue. I think it's a devious plot to make us buy more stuff. The children next door - a girl and a boy - have to have new stuff, nothing can be passed down. Each has their own pink or blue. It's brainwashing. I don't think calling children by a neutral name will make the slightest difference when at home parents are stereotyping as they are told by business.

(None of our local independent toy shops have girls or boys labels. Dolls are together, guns are together yes, but not labelled girls or boys. Surely that would be sex discrimination? )

Perhaps we should revive gender neutral names like Shirley or Hilary. There is a (male) MP called Hilary.

My daughters just grew up as kids. Any genderfication (!) just happened or didn't happen. What they had was a mother who was more concerned with principles, good sense and strength of character than with trivialities and who would have applied exactly the same bringing up to sons had she had any. Seems to have worked with the older two. Their womanhood/femininity is perfectly sound. DD3 is still growing up.

My daughter grew up among boys. She was extremely tomboyish, wore only shorts and t-shirts, one year when she was 5 or 6 memorably gave a doll that she had just received from her grandparents, to the child next door.

I let all this happen, didn't intervene or steer things at all. She's 36 now and it's one of the things she likes to challenge me about, especially when we look at old photos. She thinks I should have steered her towards being a bit more feminine, growing up She also thinks I should have made her keep the doll!

I then remind her how strong willed she was - and is!

I read about such an experiment too, suzie. The one I read about was in Canada, if I remember rightly. I've often wondered how it went/is going and whether it will have any detectable effect on the child.

btw, jings, there's nothing wrong with playing with dolls. I did too. But if boys want to play with dolls there shouldn't be a problem—actually, there isn't. Toy soldiers are dolls too (and those male Barbies and stuff like that)—but some people seem to think it's odd if a little boy wants to push a pram.

I remember reading a few years ago about a Swedish couple who were bringing up their baby but weren't telling anyone, even the child, whether they were a boy or a girl. To avoid gendered assumptions etc. they called the baby something made up like Pog and dressed it in gender neutral baby clothes. They said they weren't going to tell anyone till the child went to school or as long as possible. I would like to know how their experiment went, but haven't read anything about it since.

The point of not making every bloody thing gender specific is precisely so that kids can go whichever way they want, jings, without having the pre-conceived ideas of silly adults foist upon them!

I thought you weren't quite getting it. Seems I was right.

Mind you, I also think you're just being your usual bloody-minded self, which is fine .

DGS has a pink dolls push chair that had been sitting in a skip for weeks. When it eventually blew off onto the path outside her house DD took it in. DGS likes playing with it and Mum and Dad do not mind.

My three children were born in the 70's and there was no pink for girls/blue for boys. Browns and oranges were the colours of their babygrows! They all played with lego and dolls and garden stuff, sand, painting etc. The pushchair was turquoise from Mothercare, or a red Mc Claren. Seems to me the greedy businesses pushed pink/blue to make parents have to buy more, as many would not use pink pushchair for a boy. (Goodness know why anyone would want a pink pushchair in the first place!!)

I can't bear the aisles of pink toys etc in the shops. And even lego has gone girly in some of their kits.

However, I do think boys and girls play differently, however we bring them up. Just watch them in a primary school playground - the girls chat and make daisy chains, the boys run around playing football or play fighting.