Art is culture, right?

Trisher I object strongly to your assertion that I and rosequartz are immersed in the nostalgia-romance. What have either of us said to support that contention, beyond disagree with you?

My family suffered grievously in WW1, my grandfather, three great uncles killed. Most of them family men in their thirties who left widowed mothers, wives and young children to mourn them and struggle on. In my childhood, in the company of the women left behind, I experienced the damage these losses had on the survivors.

You seem to forget that the metaphor of the poppies and the dead was written by a serving officer after he had buried a close friend. It was written within months of the deaths of my great uncles.

by John McCrae, May 1915

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Oh dear, nostalgia-romance, written by a serving soldier while on the front line, what could he have been thinking of!

I can't help feeling these ceramic poppies are a step too far. Where does remembering, and feelings of horror and concern, stop and, almost, enjoyment begin?

Wellrosequartz and FlicketyB firstly about the horrors of war I disagree about them being portrayed every day on the television. There was a point probably around the time of the Vietnam war when real images were seen. The photograph of the little girl running who had been hit by napalm comes to mind. Now it seems to be more fashionable to show something less shocking.
The fact that the government sells a war to the public and young men flock to the cause can't be denied, the justification for this propaganda can be questioned. I doubt young men in 1914 fully understood what was happening(which was in fact a struggle for empires) and probably believed the Germans were about to murder their families. As for trench warfare the French in fact lost far fewer men than the British in many battles because their generals did not send troops into battle in the same way.
I fully understand Owen's poem and posted only the words "Dulce etc" because I think he would have found the poppies just as distasteful as he found the words. The poppies are not there to remind people of the horrors of war- filling the moat with mud, adding some decomposing cadavers, a couple of dead horses, some barbed wire and a sound track of men screaming would do it better. The poppies make us think there was something heroic about the whole of WW1. I understand people want to remember loved ones lost, but making that sacrifice more romantic in any way does a disservice to them. There are war memorials all over the country. Stand at one, look at the names, notice how the same surname appears again and again, and recognise this was brothers, or a father and sons, all the men in a family wiped out at once. It will mean much more than a whole lot of pretty poppies.
I don't think I need to explain nostalgia-romance, both of you are solidly immersed in it. A result perhaps of the present propaganda that past and present wars are justifiable.

Thanks to Flickety B for her posts, which express my own feelings much better than I could have. I buy poppies, and contribute to the British Legion appeals in memory of my relatives who fought, and some who died in WW1 and 2. I hope the money raised will go towards supporting the men and women who have fought in more recent wars. I've been involved in supporting a number of ex servicemen (no women to date) whose experiences led to a ptsd diagnosis. I believe most people who donate do so in the knowledge of the damage wars cause, rather than because they want to glorify it.

I totally disagree with you Trisher. I believe that the constant reminder in television every day every day of the brutality of war, as I mentioned above, has actually made most people more aware of the horrors of WW1 and has contributed to the need to commemorate, the men who lived and died in such terrible circumstances. I have never come across this 'nostalgia romance' you speak of.

I would also argue with your view of an 'uncaring' government. This is the result of a left wing musical with catchy tunes (which I thoroughly enjoyed when I saw it). Noel Coward spoke of the potency of cheap music, and this is a classic example, but popularity does not mean accuracy. The causes of the WW1 are complex, but certainly to begin with men in the UK willing flocked to join the forces and fight an enemy they enthusiastically acknowledged as such. This 20th century war introduced a form of warfare, with trench fighting and massive artillery bombardments, that became standard in later wars but in WW1 the generals on both sides trained in 19th century wars struggled to understand and adjust to it.

William Owen wrote his poem Dulce ist decorum est as a bitter repost to a poem by Jessie Pope, who wrote many patriotic poems extolling the 'glories' of dying for your country and which were aimed at encouraging men to enlist. To quote from the analysis of the poem on the site of the William Owen Association.. The title is ironic. The intention (of the poem) was not so much to induce pity as to shock, especially civilians at home who believed war was noble and glorious..... A poem seemingly written at white heat. Harsh, effective in the extreme.

I don't agree at all with this view, trisher.

They are not trying to use 'pretty poppies' as a growing movement towards sanitizing war. They are a symbol of something good coming out of something dreadful. There was an article in the media the other day about someone who has a real poppy brought back from the fields of Flanders by a soldier who survived, the poppy dried and preserved with his other papers.

The poppy has been used as a symbol of sacrifice and hope for the future since before 1921.

That is a poem I learnt and analysed at school and will always remember; Wilfred Owen used the term 'Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori' in an ironic sense, not literal.
It was probably used by the Roman poet Horace in a literal sense, but not by Owen who was fully aware of the horrors of war. It is wrong to quote it out of context:

www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

I doubt any thinking person over the age of about 4 looks at the poppies and thinks 'Oh, they are so pretty, how artistic'! They look upon them as a symbol of sacrifice, many having lost family members in that dreadful war, and they give thanks to those who enable us to live in (relative) freedom today, able to speak our minds such as the two people mentioned in the OP, without fear of imprisonment.

We should give thanks and remember and learn.

I think I agree about the sanitisation of war, and the idea that something which is so visually attractive contributes towards this. I think that there is a long history of using art to portray war in a way that makes it acceptable. so this installation simply continues this.
I think there is a growing "nostalgia-romance" becoming common when the First World War is mentioned. It is easier to recall our dead ancestors as romantic heroes dying tragically for their country than to think of them as young men suffering and dying, without any choice, sacrificed by an uncaring government. The pretty poppies are simply an example of this growing movement. The physical portrayal of the words Wilfred Owen used "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

Thank you FlicketyB. Your post sums up all that Remembrance is about.

If some commercialism brings the poppy and all that it means to the public's attention then that cannot altogether be a bad thing. Other wonderful charities have sprung up to help those servicemen injured in later conflicts but the RBL and its Poppy Appeal has raised money since 1921, and works in conjunction with some of these other, newer, charities.
Anyone who tries to suggest that the poppy is a political symbol or a celebration of war does it a grave disservice.

FlicketyB Thank you for summing up my feelings about Rememberance Poppies so eloquently.

That is a lovely post.

FlicketyB
Thank you for that post.

I have come to this thread rather late, half term and DGD staying has kept me away from Gransnet.

Nothing can sanitise war. Every day there are media images of the brutality currently happening in the Middle East. The terrible mutilation of British soldiers blown up by IEDs in Afghanistan is also constantly before us. Anyone who does not realise the brutality of war is culpably ignorant.

But let us also remember the grief of those left behind. They need to grieve for those they lost and have that grief acknowledged. Throwing horrors at them, a moat filled with bones and barbed war may shock, and horrify, but it does not acknowledge grief. The idea of the poppy as a reminder of the dead came from a serving soldier not from some PR company. It symbolises the shed blood but also the triumph of the human spirit that from the horror of the trenches, flowers of such beauty and fragility were the first to grow on the devastated land. The purpose of the poppy is to acknowledge the slaughter of those that died but also to acknowledge the grief of those they left behind and offer some hope for the future..

Remembrance Day and the Flanders Poppy, like Christmas is as commercial as we as individuals choose to make it. Neither, to me, is a commercial event. I remember my mother and her sister who grew up fatherless, a circumstance that effected their whole lives, my grandmother who at the end of the war was alone and the only support for an elderly mother, invalid sister and two small girls, I remember the grandfather and great uncles I never knew. I can still grieve for what my family lost in that war.

When my poppies arrive with me after their sojourn as part of this great art work. I will treasure them as symbols of what my family went through at that terrible time.

I think it's actually quite brave to make a statement that will more or less guarantee that you will be vilified by the mainstream media and a large proportion of the population.

Would you extend such a sneering assessment to those veterans (such as the ones who wrote to the Guardian in 2010) who also believed that the original purpose of Remembrance Day had been lost in a sea of commercialism and political posturing.

In 2002 BAE systems sponsored Poppy Day and their logo was on promotional material for Remembrance Sunday.

In 2011 the Royal British Legion allowed two other companies to produce poppies, one of which produced elaborate poppies, popular with celebrities, that looked more like fashion accessories than symbols of remembrance. This company paid just 10% of its profits to the Legion.

Millers Tale

Thank you for such a reasoned, polite post.

I bought 4 poppies in the display to represent the four members of my family who died in WW1.

I just thought JJ's comments were puerile, the actions of a baby throwing his toys out of the pram because nobody is paying attention to him. I was reminded of the Flanders and Swann song 'Pee, Po Belly Bum Drawers

Ma's out, Pa's out, Let's talk rude!
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Dance round the garden in the nude,
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Let's write rude words all down our street,
Stick out our tongues at the people we meet,
Let's have an intellectual treat for
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.

The above is roughly his intellectual level.

I bought 4 poppies in the display to represent the four members of my family who died in WW1.

I just thought JJ's comments were puerile, the actions of a baby throwing his toys out of the pram because nobody is paying attention to him. I was reminded of the Flanders and Swann song 'Pee, Po Belly Bum Drawers

Ma's out, Pa's out, Let's talk rude!
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Dance round the garden in the nude,
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.
Let's write rude words all down our street,
Stick out our tongues at the people we meet,
Let's have an intellectual treat for
Pee Po Belly Bum Drawers.

The above is roughly his intellectual level.

No I didn't think you were making a personal attack . I took it as you debating and taking me up a points you disagreed with.

It's good to debate and I am having to learn the etiquette of this forum- I should have made it clearer that only one part of my post was a response to you and the rest, more general.

Millers Tale

I did not accuse you of having a predicated view of war=wrong, so therefore poppies=wrong. My words were meant in a generalised way.

I also clearly stated that I make no implication to any one poster on this thread, before anybody feels I am making a personal attack.

I thought that would be seen as generalising the debate but as I did open my post addressed to you I understand how and why you feel I was in a discussion with you only. That was not my intention for the whole of the post but I did mean it for my first paragraph re the politicisation point.

I did not mention the role of past, present or future governments (of any colour) funding or actions because I don't find it relevant to the point I was making but I was rather pleased that the Libor fines (over £100 million) were pledged to go to supporting the armed forces and other good causes rather than getting down the deficit or job creation for example.

Yes- I will be adopting that. It is embarrassing.

It's because the weather has got cooler, my fingers are making typos today. That's my excuse.

and 'there' not 'their' What is going on?

Buy a poppy, not by <oops>

Rose

Again, I refer you to the appalling treatment of the forces by the establishment, the government and those that unquestioningly by a poppy.

The establishment wants you to keep on buying them as it means they can continue to shirk their responsibilities to the serving and formerly serving.

And this is the view of Harry Smith and quite a few of his colleagues and former colleagues. Privately, the British Legion will admit their is a major issue with the way funding is allocated to things like rehab and mental health, housing, welfare and homelessness. The Royal Legion has to exist because we, as a society do not demand the government helps properly. We are effectively taxed twice.

How many service people are homeless on our streets? Should charity support them or a supposedly grateful nation via proper provision? Do you think that is somehow totally unrelated?

I do not.

soory, that should have been in italics, not highlighted. I was not intending it as a statement as it is not something I would agree with.

I think the poppy has been politically hijacked

This seems to be the view of the left-wing popular press and 'intelligentsia' themiller'stale.

I wonder if the Royal British Legion would agree.