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A thought for both republicans and monarchists...

(35 Posts)
thatbags Thu 07-Apr-16 07:14:39

...and people like me who are somewhere in between the two absolutes. I heard a podcast today in which this was said:

"Countries that have kings and queens, which are rationally stupid, weird ideas, are empirically freer and more socially just than countries that don't".

What followed was fascinating and I'll post a link anon but I wanted to post the quote without saying where it was said or by whom so that people could think about it on its own merits before being subject to what sometimes seems like the inevitable bias that knowing who said it often imposes.

The quote is a statement of what is in fact true: an empirical truth rather than a rational truth.

In short, what do people think of the idea as it stands?

I've out it in the Culture Forum because it's about how we think and how we speak about things, which are central to our culture.

durhamjen Tue 12-Apr-16 18:17:05

The English Bill of Rights was just as important for ordinary people and MPs. That was in 1689, and allowed MPs to speak freely in parliament without fear of punishment.
It also prevented royalty from meddling in elections to make sure their favourite courtiers got in.
That happens in reverse now, with MPs' favourites being made Lords.
It also restated that laws and taxes require the consent of the English people through their representatives in parliament.

So this is what Cameron and cohort want us to go back to.

durhamjen Tue 12-Apr-16 18:08:13

No. I only know about the Magna Carta because there was an exhibiton about it in Durham Cathedral Green last year.
I took my grandson, and he saw one of the copies of the original one. They had to be copied by hand, and were sent to various city cathedrals so ordinary people could see them.
They couldn't read them, of course, and did not understand them.
The king, Henry 111 by then, did not take much notice if it, and it was altered by Simon de Montfort in 1265. The good thing about the de Montfort one is that it was written in English, instead of Latin and French.

whitewave Thu 07-Apr-16 23:33:47

Oh that is interesting. Do you know about Napoleonic Law?

durhamjen Thu 07-Apr-16 23:05:21

Only three clauses of the Magna Carta still stand, and one of those is to do with the freedom of the city of London.
One of the others is to do with us having to be tried by our peers. However, even that has been done away with in some circumstances.
So there is not much left of the Magna Carta.

Elegran Thu 07-Apr-16 20:57:06

He did say that he was not claiming that countries without monarchies are all unstable, but that in general those with monarchies are stable socially.

Eloethan Thu 07-Apr-16 19:47:40

Although it is acknowledged that countries with monarchies are generally more stable than republics, I don't think there is any evidence to support the suggestion that there is a direct causal link between monarchy and increased stability.

Most of the countries that still retain monarchies are relatively wealthy (e.g. Bahrain, Belgium, Denmark, Japan, Portugal, Jordan, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Monaca, Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, UK, etc.), and so are likely to be more stable anyway. Even in "developed" countries - monarchies or republics - it is fairly evident that political stability is threatened when economic difficulties arise.

Some monarchies have been the source of great instability, having failed to adapt to changing opinions and demands, and have collapsed or been overthrown. It is only those countries who have retained their monarchies - by making it legally impossible to question their legitimacy (such as in Saudi Arabia or Thailand) or by successfully managing any rumblings of discontent from their own populations - where monarchies survive.

I would also suggest that several monarchical countries, such as the UK, Spain, the Netherlands, Portugal, etc, have in the past colonised and exploited the poorer parts of the world and continue to exert their power over smaller nations. I believe it is not the lack of a monarch that has led to their instability but the lack of control over their own resources and the exploitation of those resources by more powerful countries. Those countries with monarchies that have not colonised or exploited other parts of the world but that have instead relied on exploiting their own people, often rule by fear.

thatbags Thu 07-Apr-16 13:09:50

I think he was talking about the idea of kings and queens being the same as the idea of monarchy. He was certainly not talking about individual kings or queens.

This article in a speccie is though, specifically Charles. Wheatcroft seems to think we could lose our monarchy (which Fry doesn't seem to want, and neither do I after hearing that podcast) if Charles becomes king. I don't think Wheatcroft is the only one to think that way either.

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 07-Apr-16 12:04:54

Oh. Stephen Fry.

You can't refer to kings and queens as being 'ideas'. A monarchy is an idea. Not the individuals concerned.

And he calls that clear thinking? Man's a buffoon and he doesn't realise it. Probably due to an over-endowment of pomposity.

And the fact that some crazies in America believe in angels, is down to the separation of Church and state? I don't think so!

thatbags Thu 07-Apr-16 11:45:45

The comment about "stupid, weird things" refers to monarchies, jings, or the concept of monarchy as a method of law-making, and it expresses the view of the speaker in the podcast.

I understand what he meant (first clue as to the who) and agree with him rationally (as anno noticed) but, as he points out, empirically, the countries that are the most open and where people have the most freedom, have monarchies.

terribull is onto the sort of countries he was talking about. He included the UK.

Here's the link. Speaker is talking to Dave Rubin and the theme of the 'interview' is clear thinking. It's not a very long listen and it is interesting even if you don't like the speaker. Some gransnetters have said they don't. As usual I'm more concerned about what is being said rather than who is saying it.

#WhatNotWho

Elegran Thu 07-Apr-16 11:09:06

Knowsley In the US, those with most money are elevated above the rest, and venerated because they have it. Anyone wishing to become head of state there has to buy the postion.

whitewave Thu 07-Apr-16 11:00:33

Yes whilst I largely disagree in principle with the statement - although I am willing to stand corrected - I do think, as odd as they are -which is probably their virtue - the Windsors are the best of the alternative

GillT57 Thu 07-Apr-16 10:41:05

It is s strange statement, but I find myself agreeing with it. I am not an ardent Royalist, and would get some of the lower levels of the family off the payroll, but the alternative of an elected president/Head of State is fraught with worries, would it be who shouts loudest? Who has the most money? FFS you could end up with something appalling like Trump. I rest my case.

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 07-Apr-16 10:31:35

Our Royal Family is totally about what they contribute to society. And, I hate to disillusion you Knowsley, but Diana's boys (and Kate) have knocked your theory on the head. They will last.

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 07-Apr-16 10:28:41

"It's interesting that a constitutional monarchy seems to foster a stable democracy." (quoting anno)

I agree with that.

Also, the US must surely be freer than, say, Russia or China. So maybe it's simply "different strokes for different folks".

I'm glad we've got a Queen. And Spain is great, just as it is. smile

Anniebach Thu 07-Apr-16 10:09:47

I am no royalist but hesitate to support a president , who ever stood for election it means they would have to be wealthy, very wealthy , fame would bring in votes for them . Neither appeals to me

Knowsley Thu 07-Apr-16 10:02:20

We in the UK have one of the poorest constitutions of any western country. Roughly based on the Magna Carta, which was written in 1215, and which dealt with laws associated with noblemen and serfs. Not at all relevant to life in the 21st century.

The Monarchy serves no useful purpose at all. To live in a society where some people are elevated above others due to an accident of birth rather than the value they add to society, isn't the society that I would chose for myself. Thankfully I can't see the monarchy lasting much longer.

annodomini Thu 07-Apr-16 09:52:48

I think it means 'stupid by any rational standards', jings and I agree that it's not a well thought-out phrase. It does seem to go counter to logic that the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands - all monarchies - are often held up as examples of humane democracies. What about Belgium, which has recently proved to be somewhat chaotic in terms of law enforcement? And was the return of the monarchy to Spain better than a conversion from dictatorship to democratically elected republic? We'll never know the answer to that. It's interesting that a constitutional monarchy seems to foster a stable democracy.

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 07-Apr-16 09:35:18

It's a very sweeping statement anyway.

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 07-Apr-16 09:32:47

Perhaps they meant, 'countries that have kings and queens, which is a rationally stupid and weird idea'.....

Can an idea be rational and stupid?

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 07-Apr-16 09:29:33

I think whoever said it ought to sort his/her phrasing out. Or their punctuation.

jinglbellsfrocks Thu 07-Apr-16 09:27:06

"Countries that have kings and queens, which are rationally stupid, weird ideas, ...."

I don't understand that bit. Are the countries, or the kings and queens, supposed to be stupid. And, again, which ones have the weird ideas? confused

TerriBull Thu 07-Apr-16 09:17:43

that not who

TerriBull Thu 07-Apr-16 09:17:03

Sweden and Norway (I think) have monarchies and they are held up as ideals to emulate in some respects. France and Russia both got rid of their monarchies in bloody revolutions and then replaced them with absolute rulers, and certainly in Russia's case by a regime who allowed very little dissent.

whitewave Thu 07-Apr-16 09:09:20

I am on a steep learning curve here!

So hasn't the Neopoleonic Law been modified over the preceding centuries? And from the dim distance past I remember it talked about no advantage should be given according to your status in society. Religion was also privatised so the state became secular.

Need some help here!

thatbags Thu 07-Apr-16 08:59:30

izabella, exactly what the person in the podcast said: US citizens, for all their constitution and official separation of church and state, are less free than those people in the "free monarchy countries".