Plant based eating and veganism

Hubby and I gave up eating meat 5-years-ago for moral reasons. We don’t miss it. We still eat responsibly sourced fish, including pole and line caught tuna. We also have quorn in some dishes e.g. chilli (althugh we also enjoy vegetable chilli too), lasagne etc. We don’t miss meat at all.

I have been vegetarian for nearly 40 years, mainly because I don't want to eat animals. I know I couldn't kill one myself. I don't eat fish but I do eat cheese and dairy. I'm not happy with myself about this, but I always felt it's hard enough being veggie, yet alone vegan.

I do eat a lot of eggs and cheese. Can't get on with quorn, it upsets my stomach. I do eat lots of nuts and seeds and pulses. Could get by without milk. If I felt that me going vegan would change things for animals, I would do it. I know I am weak. There is a free range beef farm over the fields from me, and I hate to hear the poor cows bellowing for their calves, when they've been taken away. It goes on for days.

#1 daughter has been vegan for many years. She works for Greenpeace so it is on moral grounds. My grandson will be 12 in June and was vegan for the first 10 years, but opted to be veggie now, His dad is a meat eater but he won't eat meat. His little sister is 3 next week. She's vegan from birth too and both kids have no problems, mum knows how to vary the food and give a diet that has all necessary elements for growth. Grandson is tall and granddaughter sturdy, thank goodness. Neither child gets much in the way of sweets etc except for treats. Ourside cakeshop windows we just explain they are not vegan . this no longer works with grandson!

It would seem that all you people who have decided that animals replicate humans in their emotional responses. The Telegraph piece is very misleading and written by someone who is not a food provider. That is what farmers do - provide the nation with food - frequently under difficult situations. The method of livestock farming that has been traditional replaces soil nutrients so that further food giving crops can be grown. And not to mention that our countryside is the result of that Livestock farming culture. If you take Veganism to the ultimate i.e. no animals, then the countryside as we know and love it will disappear under a canopy of scrub and be of no use to anyone. Please Vegans all, balance in all things. You do your thing and I'll do mine. And I like my countryside as it is.

Vegetarian diets, although better than eating meat etc., are not socially responsible. They are attributable to billions of deaths and torture of cows each year, not to mention the cruel separation of mother and baby.

Many people would be B12 or D deficient, simply because of bad food choices/junk or convenience foods etc. It is not exclusive to vegan diets. Its up to us to supplement as we see fit.

As for essential fatty acids etc., again it all depends on which research you believe. The dairy industry, after all, want you to believe that their products are healthy for you but there is so much evidence to the contrary from professional doctors and other people with little or no personal interest in you believing these facts either way. Personally, I found out over a year ago that dairy can contribute to thyroid problems and after becoming vegan and eating a much healthier diet, I seem to have normalised my thyroid, hence no need to take further medication.

Regardless of the health benefits of a vegan diet (or whatever you choose to believe), the main problem that many seem to miss is that of the treatment of animals. You dont have to look far for that evidence.

We all know about corruption and that it is prevalent in the human world and animal agriculture is certainly no exception.

I am veggie most of the time but do eat fish. I would find a vegan diet trying as seeds and nuts tend to aggravate my diverticulitis. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

Cows do not get vitamin D from plants. It is a fat soluble vitamin made by animals using sunshine. As we live at a northern latitude we are deficient in vitamin d because we see little strong sunshine and cover ourselves to prevent skin cancer. A good natural source is oily fish but that doesn’t help vegans!

ljp1, this from the vegan society: "How can vegans get enough omega-3 fat?
Include good sources of ALA in your daily diet, such as chia seeds, ground linseed, hemp seeds and walnuts, and use vegetable (rapeseed) oil as your main cooking oil. To meet the ALA recommendations of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) and the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), you would need to eat about a tablespoon of chia seeds or ground linseed, two tablespoons of hemp seeds or six walnut halves daily."

More detailed info is available on
www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/omega-3-and-omega-6-fats

This info to clarify that a dairy- or meat-inclusive diet is not actually necessary for long-chain fatty acids.

I am happy to eat vegetarian most of the time, I eat meat probably no more that twice a month, but could never become a vegan. I have never found a decent vegan cheese, no through lack of trying I might add, even when they smell right the texture and taste is wrong. Alternative milks don't seem to make good custard either, I've tried Almond, Rice etc. I enjoy eggs, and the lutein content in organic eggs is far superior to that in any vegetable, lutein is good for the eyes delaying the onset of macular degeneration. I also enjoy honey on my porridge.

But most of all the idea that plants are ok to eat when it has been proved that they communicate with each other seems to go against the vegan ethos. Or am I wrong?

It is also worth remembering that butter, cream and full fat milk provide essential fatty acids which are needed for nerves & brain function. Grass fed cows also give the omega 3 fatty acids, essential for cell membrane functions.

Have been a veggie for 30 years now, purely because I went off meat and the thought of the chemicals in it.

Balanced vegetarian diets are fine, healthy and socially responsible.

Vegan diets tend to lead to iron & vit B12 deficiency so supplements are needed.

Well said Marlowlady, your post reminded me that when I became vegetarian, the morality of it was important and I used to think that if you wanted to eat meat then you should be prepared to humanely kill an animal with your own hands. Its about respect for the animal as a living being capable of feeling fear and pain, just like us.

I have met farmers who kill for their own table or have the butcher out to do so and I have had some interesting conversations about how they feel that the meat is more nutritious when not filled with stress hormones relating to being killed in stressful circumstances. Of course, market pressures win and they turn their backs for the bulk of their trade. It doesn't help that we seem to think we need to eat vast quantities of meat and that food should be cheap. There's always a price to pay. The production of meat in huge quantities also brings costs for the environment - managing large amounts of sewage, the overuse of antibiotics and hormones which then get into the watercourses, the contribution to greenhouse gases. Its perfectly possible to eat well and healthily with little or no meat, I am very glad to see the growth in veganism, long may it continue.

Thanks everyone for your comments. It does make me wonder sometimes how everyone points to certain vitamins (B12 and D for example) when talking about veganism. Its as though we have all suddenly become qualified nutritionists. We are all responsible for what we put in our bodies at the end of the day and many people use the above as a defence mechanism without any real knowledge or detailed information. Most people just eat without thinking much about nutrition (or the cruelty at the beginning of the chain). When you understand that over 70 BILLION land animals are killed every year, with babies being dragged away from their heartbroken mothers, some forcibly impregnated and killed eventually one way or the other; the fact that so much abhorrent cruelty is being committed each and every day for basically our taste buds, it just doesn't add up, morally, intellectually or nutritionally.

My post was never meant to cause any angst amongst all you lovely grans but to make you question what is going on underneath our very noses (and mouths) every day. It never ceases to amaze me how much people defend their food choices but I can bet that 95% of people - most of those who say they are animal lovers - could ever kill their own meat or deprive a mother of its child so it can drink their milk.

The vegan world is expanding and will continue to do so and the fact that there are now over 3 million vegans in the UK alone, shows that people are waking up to the constant insidious brainwashing of the media as well as the agricultural and dairy industry. There is plenty of information out there to back the above and films too. If you can sit through 10 minutes of Earthlings or the Land of Hope and Glory then you are much braver than me.

Wishing you all a good day and a kinder world

I know people don't like links but this is worth looking at, the research suggests that full fat dairy products may lead to a worse outcome after breast cancer diagnosis:

www.breastcancer.org/research-news/20130327

And this one packed with information:

www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/healthyeating/10868428/Give-up-dairy-products-to-beat-cancer.html

I've been veggie all my life and have three incredibly healthy adult children, all raised as veggie, only one prescription for antibiotics between them in 3x30 years! They are largely vegan now so I'm learning some wonderful new recipes from them. It was the animal welfare issue that got me started. What right do we have to confine animals in unpleasant ways and feed them their own species or hormones or antibiotics so that we can eat them? Doesn't do us much good eating their stressed meat either. I don't understand meat eaters!

B12) where would one think the cows got it from in the first place? Plants.

The digestive system of cattle is quite different from ours. They have four stomachs for a start because grass and related vegetation is so difficult to digest. Essentially it needs to be fermented. We don't have the equipment to do that.

So cows might well have an ability to make vitamin B12 that we lack. The fact that we don't make our own B12 but have to get it from animal-sourced food does suggest, I think, that hominids have been eating animal-sourced foods for a long time in evolutionary terms.

We don't make our own Vitamin C either. Some mammals do.

Me too, jenpax - except my love of cheese

I am a vegetarian of over 30 years standing I am now trying to go vegan (cheese has been my downfall?) I don’t drink dairy milk only almond and coconut milk and I eat olive oil spread and no yogurts I don’t feel less healthy for cutting dairy and am happy to cut them out

Not explicit or implied criticism Jane, see my last post. I consume dairy myself, but it doesn't stop me criticising myself for it.

You did actually say you do what OM does, that is, "cutting meat especially, right down to a minimum and upping vegetable intake" which is fine.

You also commented in relation to Vit D intake: "I don’t think it’s healthy to abstain from dairy unless you have a proven lactose intolerance", and my earlier post was a response to that, not a criticism of your dietary habits. As regards Vit D, it is perfectly possible to get an adequate intake while abstaining from dairy. That's a point of information, not a criticism of you personally.

I’ve confined my comments on this thread to the health aspects of eating meat and dairy produce and dodgy scientific claims humpty and don’t appreciate being singled out for implied criticism.

jane, doing neither, simply a request not an order.

humpty please don’t make assumptions about me and don’t tell me what to do.

jane doesn't the above Guardian article make you feel guilty? by all means eat what you want, but at least think of the ethical issues..

That is what I do, oldmeg.
marlowlady I’ve never heard of Michael Greger but I am sceptical of his claim that cancer is ‘caused’ by eating meat and dairy, since it is multi-factorial. Most of experts consider that genetics, environment, and lifestyle as well as diet all influence the development of cancer but mainly it is bad luck.
To imply that people are responsible for their own cancers because they have eaten meat is cruel to say the least.

Hi OM, for me, the compelling reason to be vegan is because of the extreme distress caused to cows in the production of dairy. This from The Guardian:

"A mother cow only produces milk when she gets pregnant. So, starting from the age of 15 months, she will usually be artificially inseminated. Farmers mechanically draw semen from a bull, and then force the female cow into a narrow trap, known as a “cattle crush”, where they will brutally impregnate her.

Dairy is proving to be a vulnerable spot for the entire slaughter racket
When she gives birth, her calf will typically be removed within 36 hours, so the farmers can steal and sell you the milk that is meant for her baby. Wildlife experts say that a strong bond between cow and calf is formed quickly after birth. Following that callous separation, the mother will bellow and scream for days, wondering where her baby is. The answer depends on the gender of the calf. If male, he will probably either be shot and tossed into a bin, or sold to be raised for veal, which delays his death by just a matter of months. But if the calf is female, she will usually be prepared for her own entry into dairy production, where she will face the same cycle of hell that her mother is trapped in: forced impregnation, the theft of her baby, and a return to the cattle crush two or three months later.

For at least six months of the year, she will often be confined inside dark sheds. But a growing number of dairy farms in Britain use a “zero-grazing system” in which cows spend their entire lives indoors, in increasingly intensive structures.

Although growth hormones are banned in the UK and antibiotic use is limited, a dairy cow can be given reproductive hormones and prescribed antibiotics by a vet to ensure she is kept in a condition to produce an unnatural amount of milk. Under normal circumstances, she would generally only have a maximum of two litres of milk in her udder at any one time, but rapacious farmers may force her to carry 20 litres or more. Her udder becomes so heavy that it makes her lame and she often develops an agonising infection called mastitis. The strain this puts on her body means she is exhausted by the age of five. Soon, her milk yield will no longer be considered profitable. Or she might simply collapse under the agony of it all. Either way, she will be dragged off by a tractor, squeezed into a cramped truck, and driven to the slaughterhouse, to be killed and turned into burgers or baby food. Her throat slit after five sad and torturous years – under natural circumstances she could have lived to 25."

Just reading that and pasting it in makes me ashamed to not be vegan.