No longer a Vegan after 11 years

Some people are feeding their dogs a vegan diet which doesn’t seem right to me. Then a thought crossed my mind - if we all went vegan what would happen to zoo animals like lions and snakes that baby chicks are fed to?

Great Post marymary I read A Shepherd's Life*. I loved it. Your last point about imported food and lower welfare standards is so important now that we're going to be importing more from America.

I passed a farm of outdoor pigs recently and they looked so happy. I guess their end is not so good with the closure of so many abattoirs.

I saw a poster of a mixed group of farm animals the other day with a caption which read 'we are not products', so important to remember.

None of the vegans I know have stomach problems . A lot of the meat eaters I know have high cholesterol, high sugar levels and heart problems.I’m sure I could say the reverse too ??.
The planet is never going to be totally vegan, some people choose to be so. Soil health is incredibly important but years of neglect and farming practices haven’t helped . Listen to James Rebanks ‘A shepherds life’ on Radio 4 - or read it. It made me cry about farming and I grew up on a farm. There are alternatives to cow muck - green manures ( we grew clover and ploughed it back in ) seaweed, grains. But a few animals for fertilising soils may not always be against a vegan way of lifestyle ..... Crop rotation and the right crop for the soil, adapting to a no plough technology and drill seed straight it preserves the soil and increases yield . Farmers and growers have also learnt the organic way does work but takes patience. It takes years to get rid of heavy metals and pesticides - my young grandaughter probably has DDT in her body as it is still out there. Never mind the plastics ! We must protect the soil but traditional farming doesn’t, with slurry , overuse of pesticides and run off into rivers .Where is that slurry from? It’s cows that have watery shit because they are indoors fed on rubbish rather than the nice firm cow pats of field reared animals. Veganism is a revolt against factory farming and cruelty. Antibiotic resistance ? Think about the amount that is used in agriculture - more controlled now but if we import our meat who knows ...? Be kind folks

I've known a few vegans to be anaemic.

The vegans I know all have stomach problems but say it’s nothing to do with their diet. It’s not for me. I am trying to be veggie three days a week.

You may well be right Monica, I was quoting a couple of organic farmers I knew in Oxfordshire and things that occasionally get shared by Riverford.

This is perhaps diverting the thread, for which I apologise, but I must admit I've shocked myself for idly checking up on soil fertility which I'd read about and clearly future fertility is a concern and must influence how we buy and eat our food.

Main findings of a recent government report www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-of-the-environment/summary-state-of-the-environment-soil:

Soil is an important natural capital resource. It provides us with many essential services.

Soil biodiversity and the many biological processes and soil functions that it supports are thought to be under threat.

There are insufficient data on the health of our soils. Investment is needed in soil monitoring.

In England and Wales:

almost 4 million hectares of soil are at risk of compaction
over 2 million hectares of soil are at risk of erosion
intensive agriculture has caused arable soils to lose about 40 to 60% of their organic carbon
soil degradation was calculated in 2010 to cost £1.2 billion every year
Compaction and the loss of organic carbon are serious threats to soil health. They affect agricultural production and our resilience to climate change. UK soils currently store about 10 billion tonnes of carbon. This is roughly equal to 80 years of annual UK greenhouse gas emissions.

Wasting food and growing crops for bioenergy are putting additional pressure on soils.

Spreading of some materials to land is poorly controlled and can give rise to contamination. Some 300,000 hectares are contaminated in the UK.

Microplastics are widespread in soil with unknown consequences.

I am not sure that is entirely true, JillyJosie2. Non organic farmers, spray cattle and chicken slurry on their fields and have to be careful how they use it because of its high levels of nitrogen and other elements. I have also seen heaps of solid manure on some fields which are not on organic farms.

Soil analysis has shown that where land is cultivated to organic standards, this decline on soil quality has been reversed.

And if we all become vegans what is going to fertilise all the soil for the veggies? Lots of lovely chemicals.

I hate to say it, but only organic farmers use animal manure fertiliser and even then it will be supplemented with acceptable artificial fertilisers. The same goes for pesticides.

Treated human waste is often used now too, I'll never forget a friend who had a vineyard telling me how they had to have the soil cleaned every five years to remove the heavy metals which humans have in their bodies.

I've been vegetarian nearly all my life and vegan some of the time. I began as a result of concern about factory farming but I have continued because it's been so good for my health. However, what we eat has wider ramifications than just avoiding exploiting animals, the soils in Britain are being starved of nutrients. Try Googling soil deterioration in the UK, you will find that there is serious concern, eg.

“The world's top soil could be gone within 60 years” says a senior UN official; “Britain has only 100 harvests left” writes the Independent newspaper; “UK is 30 to 40 years away from the 'eradication of soil fertility' warns Gove” [the former Environment Secretary].22 Jan 2021

When we celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary with a family meal for 15, I had to cater for 3 vegetarians, 2 people with serious allergies and one person with IBS and a hiatus hernia.

I hired outside caterers for the event and between us we designed a meal where everyone ate the same food apart from different main course (but same veg) for the vegetarians and one person had an Eton Mess made with grapes rather than strawberries. I was quite proud of myself (and my caterer). I must say I enjoyed the intelelctual challenge this posed.

I think it is perfectly possible to live healthily on a vegetarian diet. Not sure about veganism though.

But in both cases I think you have to be very careful to eat correctly.

I had a friend who always said that she was very sensible about ensuring the correct nutrition etc, but when trying to get pregnant found she was extremely low on vit B12 and had to have injections. She now eats meat, after initially bringing up her daughter on a vegetarian diet, who when starting nursery started to refuse to eat veggies only and demanded meat.

There is a lot of side taking here. Truth and false on both . It’s impossible to make broad general statements about meat eaters or plant eaters ( sounds like dinosaurs !) Both may eat highly processed imported foods of poor quality - or take great care to source as locally as possible and cook from scratch . Some people care about where their meat or dairy comes from some don’t . Plant eaters may or may not care about where their veg etc comes from or have a clue about nutrition . Absolutely it is easier to ensure protein intake from meat and three veg - being a well nourished vegan takes time, effort and knowledge. I do agree that an over dependence on supplements is not great and vegans do need essential elements not generally present in their diet or have to work very hard to get them ! ( fermented natto beans anyone ?) I also observe that vegetarians have an over reliance on cheese ! Maybe meat eater have too much bacon .... My personal ideal is to be mainly plant based - seasonal local food - with small amounts of meat/ fish ethically and locally sourced . So much is imported for all our diets along with masses amount of soy to feed our animals ..... ! Environmental arguments can go backwards and forwards also - who doesn’t like to eat salad all year round but ...... in winter it should be cabbage not lettuce ! Remember those old recipes for ‘winter salads’ ? . It’s right that we should try to eat balanced healthy diets and that will differ from person to person . Let’s rejoice that we have the choice ! In my own family we are three vegans , two vegetarians, two meat eaters and two who eat mainly a plant based diet but consume fish on a weekly basis. It makes for fun cooking ??. Everyone does like cake though ....

Glad you are feeling better. I think you are doing right. A mix of 'good quality' and moderation most of the time.

I certainly wasn't insinuating being vegan or vegetarian was bad for everyones health,just mine,I did cut out wheat and caffeine as well when my colitis was diagnosed so that may have had an effect along with a more mixed diet .Nothing will suit everyone .

Oh, I agree, but there are those who see it differently. My mum tends to roll her eyes, for instance, and finds it inconvenient to have to buy different sweets (as an example) for the vegan great-grandchildren, as she's not used to thinking about it, and has 10 of them. You have to avoid any dairy products, so chocolate is out, as is gelatine, which is in many jelly or chewy sweets - that sort of thing.

Similarly, having to check the labels on clothing to avoid any animal fibres, and generally having to be aware of what's what in a vegan lifestyle can be a chore for some people, and that's what I'm getting at, really.

I cannot see any problem catering for a vegan. I have learnt to cater for people with severe allergy problems and have happily provided meals for vegans, vegetarians, people with severe IBS. None of it caused a problem of any kind.

Anyway. if you eat a wide range of foods, you have days when you effectively eat vegan without even realising it. I realised the other day, that I had just such a day.

I would leave the shoes, clothes, cleaning materials etc to the individual to sort for themselves, but i do not see why catering for a vegan could cause anyone any problems, better a vegan than a fussy eater, especially a child that is a fussy eater.

My niece and her family are vegan (lifestyle, not just diet). She has two very young children who follow the regime too. All of them are healthy, and they aren't too smug (?) although the older child (about 5) has had veganism explained in child-friendly terms, so does sometimes come out with some less than tactful remarks.

It is a full-time job, though. As most of society is not geared up to veganism, it is surprising how many things are not allowed to them. Even things like hand cream probably have lanolin in them, and everything they buy or use is checked for animal products.

I think the fact is that I would see it in terms of what I was denied, whereas they really don't. Even the children (although the little one is probably too young) look at it in terms of what they can do, or can have, and get satisfaction out of (what they see as) saving the planet.

It's not a bad thing, IMO, although it's not for me, and I do wonder if some of the reactions against veganism come from people who feel inconvenienced when they are asked to think a bit harder about things when a member of their family 'converts'.

I think you can adopt a more plant based diet without necessarily being a strict vegan, depends on the motivation. One size doesn’t fit all as said above. Lots of people find their gut problems or arthritis improve when removing dairy from their diet.

Isn't it strange how differently people react to something like veganism? One of my daughters suffered from Irritable Bowel Syndrome for years. It made her life her misery. She tried everything she could to help herself and then she decided to become vegan. That was about 3 years ago and the change in her has been dramatic. She looks better than she has ever done. One size does not appear to fit all were veganism is concerned.

But was the comparison like for like Vegansrock? I do not mean diet, I mean attitudes to food and lifestyle? This comparison was no doubt a couple of years ago, when there were fewer vegans and most were like you and the 'true vegans' as described byGeorgesgran above.

Unfortunately, over the last year or so, being a vegan has become a fashion statement. Like going gluten free was several years ago, that now seems to be tailing off, and I suspect that is why there are so many plant-based 'meat' products coming on the market. Doctors and nutritionists have expressed concern about the nutritional balance of the diet of many of these new vegans, because UPFs (ultra processed foods) are forming a large part of their vegan diet and there is a heavy reliance on exotic foodstuffs flown in from abroad and their effect on the agriculture of the countries they have come from, not to mention all the extra emissions from the planes bringing them in.

I am sure that in a few years time many of these fashionistas will have ceased to be vegan and will be following the next food fad. However, I am sure the number of real committed vegans will rise.

There is research that shows while vegans have less heart disease and diabetes, they are more likely to have strokes.

Pedant warning!
It’s bugged me for ages when people say they’re vegan when what they are doing is following a vegan diet. As I understand it - a true vegan doesn’t use, wear, or consume anything from fish/animal/bird sources?

I didn’t say all meat eaters are unhealthy, but then neither are all vegans. The only per reviewed research I’ve read about comparing diets showed that vegans less likely to have diabetes, obesity and heart disease.

vegansrock the fact that meat eaters fall prey to various diseases doesn’t necessarily make the vegan diet a healthy choice.
Although diet has an influence on health, most conditions are multi-factorial.
There is a wealth of knowledge about healthy food choices. Most authorities agree that an omnivorous diet provides the best nutrition.

Agree, vegans rock. And the diseases you mention are all harder to reverse than the problems people have had with veganism in the posts above. It's just more knowledge of healthy choices and, as everyone seems to accept now, things like low sugar baked beans on wholemeal toast are perfectly acceptable even though processed. It's lovely to cook from fresh everyday and buy farmshop meat but I think a lot of the "meat substitutes" that have proliferated are just trying to meet a market need & why some seem to think they're bad or exploitative is beyond me.

No many meat eaters do not eat a healthy diet, but most of them are people who have given neither time not thought to what they eat or lead their lives.

Vegans, we assume are people who have thought long and deeply about their life style and what they eat. Were you to compare them with a similar group of meat eaters, who have given as much thought and care to what they eat, I suspect you would find very little difference in their health.

Plenty of meat eaters don’t eat a healthy diet - obesity, heart disease, diabetes all diet related and common amongst meat eaters, …More knowledge of healthy choices would be better for all.Plenty of people with gut problems, IBS etc who are not vegan btw.