10 things children must be able to do before school

Urmstongran

The original OP was from 2014 - some six years ago now!

Has this been resurrected to post a link as an advertisement??

Yep Urm they are all over GN like a rash, I reported it earlier.

The original OP was from 2014 - some six years ago now!

Has this been resurrected to post a link as an advertisement??

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Of course it's a reasonable list, most kids of all backgrounds can do them all; and some kids from all backgrounds won't have learned some for a variety of reasons.

One of the issues is around how much extra help is needed or children with special needs. Most will start at a standard school; and although those with the most obvious needs will have a statement or similar & extra help, I find that there is a rather missed out few in the middle.

I was involved a few years ago in a Catch-22 where a child with mild special needs wasn't toilet-trained (the connections were very hard for him to make). School fussed because they were not able to take kids in nappies, I pointed put their special needs policy, special advisors were unable to get extra money (he was "average" in almost everything else, thanks to a lot of hard work by his parents). The problem was finally, in my view, not properly solved as his parents arranged for a nearby family friend to go in & change his nappies. He was finally reliably trained by about 7, buy which time he was assessed & statemented because of his other needs!

A 4 year old who is not listening & paying attention may not have had the proper care, but may also have a variety of health problems / disablities; some health authorities are less rigorous about checks than they once were.

Deedaa exactly .. good professionals can spot a well stimulated /supported child and one who is not!

When DGS2 started a day a week at the day nursery (22 months) they were impressed by his language and communication skills. I think he is where he should be but they thought he was advanced. This is an issue because if you do not expect you probably won't get!

I think that a few parents do not bother to even try to help kids use a toilet. I have heard more than one parent say to a child in pull-ups who has announced they need a wee 'Don't worry, you've got a nappy on' it is those parents that are not helping their children.

Parents usually know when kids are ready to try to use a potty because they show that they are aware of peeing ..that is the time to start training. For majority of kids this is between 2 1/2 -3 1/2 .
4 1/2 is quite late and I would be checking out that there was not a problem.
Therefore it is perfectly possible for the vast majority of kids to be toilet trained before starting school. However it is not OK to punish a child if they are not toilet trained..it is not their fault!

I'm not sure what potty training actually is because bladders are a law unto themselves and I don't think children can control them until they're ready to be controled. Of my two grandchildren one can go half the day without needing a wee the other one [who is a lot older] struggled with bladder control until quite recently. Both were 'trained' in exactly the same way.

I think we are being quite harsh towards today's parents. All children develop at different rates and some children will be late in potty training. It doesn't actually matter a jot to the child, but is yet another example of how they have to be rushed to fit in with adult expectations and the fact that most mothers have to work. All three of my children toilet trained themselves, when they were ready. The first two were relatively easy. If I had stopped there I might have been congratulating myself and thinking how easy it all was. My third child pricked my bubble in all sorts of ways. Nuff said.

When my two went to playgroup at 3 the rule was that they had to be potty trained or they would not take them.
DGS2 is 15 months and knows exactly what No means. He collapses in a heap on the floor at the sheer horror of being stopped! He also knows his name and can follow simple instructions. He can't dress himself yet but he knows where the different garments are supposed to go. At one of her early clinic visits DD was told that the health visitors could tell which babies were talked to when they were very tiny.

It would be interesting to see in the Scandanavian & European countries whee thy have a good history of Kindergarten/pre-school what the socio-economic gap is. I have a vague memory that the gap (and numbers of) between very poor and very rich is far less than UK/states. I suspect this also has an impact on outcomes too. The less feeling of 'them & us' and a feeling that it's not impossible to achieve success would act as an impetus to value education.

In many countries, children do not start formal school until 6 or 7 but attend early years nurseries where social skills, pre reading and number skills are developed. I must say pre-school year has benefitted my 3 oldest grandchildren and prepared them for school very well.

Astonished that 4 and 5 year olds are arriving at school in nappies! That is sheer parental laziness! No excuse (apart from special needs). All my daughters are working mothers but have had their children toilet trained by 3. It isn't doing those children any favours in the peer approval stakes!

Gillybob in the school where I taught we probably had (not including children with medical problems) 2-5 children each September coming into school in nappies(Reception class aged 4-5) We took 90 children each year.
Most were quickly sorted out! We said we would takem the but that they could not wear nappies /pull ups at school(unless an 'official' medical prob) and parents had to send in several changes of clothes and plastic bags. The vast majority were dry/clean within a fortnight!

The bigger problem for me was that many children (about 40%) did not know traditional rhymes/stories, were not used to listening to stories, singing or talking to adults. The language they usually heard were instructions 'come here' stop that' etc and TV . They rarely heard proper conversations or questions etc. perhaps they only heard one end of a mobile phone conversation?

Another growing issue, and in my experience the one that really does cross all social strata is response to adults. A growing number of kids in school who, when an adult asks them to do something just say they don't want to! I do not mean something nasty like eating your vegetables but just sit down for storytime, tidy up, etc. In my experience it is the children of more 'middle class' who can have the worst attitude... a 'you can't tell me what to do' approach!

Re the 10 things isted..i donot think they are unreasonable but they need greater clarification: Recognise name: verbal or written, on its own or mixed in a list of similar etc? Sit and listen: to what and for how long and with how many others? Different being able to listen to a well told story with a group of friends to sitting in a school assembly with over 100 kids to someone you don't know saying stuff you don't understand!

From what my still working friends say the trend is definitely going in the direction of "not yet toilet trained" but I agree it is probably still a small proportion. However, it was unheard of before the use of disposable nappies.
On the more general subject of what children should be expected to do - it is always a case of preaching to the converted. Those who need to do more with their children are the ones who will not take the advice, or even read it. Those who are already trying hard to prepare their children don't need the advice and may be dismayed by it. Twas ever thus!
I also agree with Aka that formal school should start later but good quality nursery should be available for all children to have meaningful play experiences and the company of other children before the demands of "big school". Towards the end of my career I felt that very small children were being "pressured to achieve" rather than being "encouraged to develop".
Oh, dear, you've got me started now!

it is far more about the quality of parenting, parental aspiration etc, than actual financial poverty.

I agree with that statement. I have worked with children from age 4 up to age 16 for over 30 years and I have seen good and bad in all social classes; it is incorrect to blame everything on the 'poorer classes' - I'm almost tempted to ask him to define 'poor' as the last time I checked, it had several meanings.

Gillybob I think too many politicians etc, confuse the phrase poorer backgrounds just with a lack of money. To me it is far more about the quality of parenting, parental aspiration etc, than actual financial poverty. Same with school performance.

You can be very poor but still manage to achieve in work. having money helps but there is more to this than finances.

I cannot help but agree that reception class children should be able to do most of the stuff on that list.
The literacy and numeracy is a different matter but surely, unlike some children who have specific problems, the majority should be able to get themselves dressed and speak in sentences etc.

As others have said that comes with normal adequate parenting.

I wonder how many of the groups of parents whose children cannot do these basic things, are those who have never experienced the chatting with parents singing rhymes etc. As for dressing themselves perhaps those parents could not be bothered to spend the time allowing their children to practice these skills.
The parents who have not had these experiences are those who need to be taught how to give their children these skills. (In an ideal world that is.)

Getting children to feed themselves is a very messy business, as is toilet training, but there is no alternative to letting them go through that stage and learning how to do it. Just keep a mop handy.

It has been interesting watching my DDs parenting style, she does so much of what I did and has never had to be "taught" how to communicate with DGS or to get him to follow simple instructions etc. All these skills have been absorbed by example, in a manner that she probably cannot even remember.

When my GD was in pre-school which is about 8 years ago Mums were sent for to change the child if they had an accident.These were non working mums of course. It was not a nursery.It would have been a wake up call to get them potty trained,and around that time children could not go to a nursery class without being clean and dry.

But how many of them do Rockgran ? I am not sure if this is not one of those things that have been blown out of proportion. How many children start school in the UK every year? How many children starting school are not toilet trained? I spoke to my DGS's nursery teacher and she said she didn't know of any (in her experience) . Are we being deliberately mislead?

Never worked in reception but know (from staff room chat) that children were potty trained when they came to school, though there would be the odd 'accident'. From young friends who are teaching these days it appears that the odd child is now coming to school still in disposables and the number is increasing.
Rockgran hits the nail on the head when she says these new nappies are too 'comfortable' but also they are too convenient for parents too. When it was the old terry nappies, that had to be soaked and washed and dried it certainly gave us an incentive to get children trained.

When I was a reception teacher (long ago) I used to tell the parents I would far rather a child could manage ther own coat and shoes than write their name and please PUT NAMES IN CLOTHES! I never had a child not yet toilet trained - we used to reassure anxious mums of toddlers that no child ever started school in nappies - but apparently now they do! I think the newer nappies are just too comfortable and don't give enough incentive to parent or child to move on!

I personally don't think children should start school until they are six. But good quality nursery and pre-school provision should be available to all free from three years of age. Something along the lines of that available in Denmark.

Joelsnan, I do remember some children wetting their pants and the embarrassment that accompanied that.
I am not warming to Michael Wilshaw, at all.
Nannyfran - good point about children's happiness. I was cheered to read recently that our high school children were much more adapt and creative at problem solving than many other countries. Particularly Chinese and Japanese children, who whilst good at maths, it seems were bad a problem solving skills.

Does anyone remember anyone being in nappies when they started school? We started school at 4 years old and I cannot remember anyone. I do remember a very unfortunate personal diarrohea? Incident on my way home from school one day. I was just 4 and my brother who was 13 left me to walk home on my own with the brown liquid running down my legs

So children with ASD are not allowed in school as they quite often have developmental problems to do with speech and potty training.
Most children with ASD have not been assessed when they start school, so it's impossible to say that they do not have a medical reason.

The one that would concern me the most is "able to recognise own name".