School toilets.... locked!

I did notice it was an old one but had the urge to reply to the resurrecting post.
There does seem to be a lot of it happening lately.

How do people manage to dig old threads like this, up? And why? again.

I love it when threads that finished months ago suddenly start up again as though it was being discussed this afternoon.

I think if the school feels the loos need to be locked they probably have good reason. Possibly they have had to cut staff and there isn't anyone to patrol during lessons. Maybe there have been incidents in the loos and I am sure if a child was bullied or assaulted in a loo there would be an outcry about why they weren't supervised. These are secondary school children who should be quite able to cope and if someone can't there is a pass system. Keeping on top of the inventive and creative developments that children come up with for bullying is incredibly difficult. If people think it is just bunking off and smoking they are way out of date. How many GNs know what "taxing" is? It's a common term amongst children and is the practice of a group of older bullies stopping younger children and taking money off them regularly. Most kids know about it.

In the vast comprehensive I attended it would have taken half a lesson to find the caretaker. Also think of the time it must take to go round each toilet block unlocking and locking at break time.

At secondary school the toilets are often locked during class time and the key is held by the janitor to allow pupils access as and when required. This is necessary because, on the contrary to the beliefs expressed by previous posters, most vandalism/ smoking etc happens during class time when there are no witnesses. Having pupils allowed controlled access at all times (ie via the janitor) means that schools can track who has had access in the event of an incident.

No, not in reply to you OGM!

Penstemmon If your above post, at 20:30:14 is a response to mine, then I would like to assure you that your perception is quite wrong. I do not believe that. I am merely questioning what I think is an inappropriate reaction to what may be bullying or behavioural issues and that, possibly,this policy (if that is what it is) could be re-examined and a better solution found. Dealing with bullying is extremely difficult and requires such a huge amount of time, thought and work for the whole school community
I was a classroom teacher for many years, I also worked for some time as a home tutor (with children who would not or could not attend school).
I agree that the overwhelming number of staff have the best interests of children at heart and had not intended my posts to be or appear to be hyper-critical.

I do agree re your last paragraph but my question , earlier on the thread, was do we know what else the school is doing to address the behaviour/ bullying?

The situation described is from the perspective of one pupil. There will be another perspective which may or may not be justifiable as to why the decision to close (all/some?) the loos during lessons was made. We have not heard that side but many are quick to condemn on only half the information.

I know there are unsatisfactory teachers, odd decisions , poor schools! Most of my work now is helping to address these issues in schools. However the overwhelming number of staff have the best interests of children at heart. I may be hyper-sensitive but there are also those who are hyper -critical.

Penstemmon I think the great majority of posters on Gransnet feel that most teachers do a good job in often very difficult circumstances.

I can understand why current and former teachers may feel sensitive about any criticism of a school's practices. They are constantly being pilloried by press and TV journalists, many of whom wouldn't have the first clue how to maintain the interest, discipline and respect of a classroom full of young people.

That said, I think there is such a thing as hyper-sensitivity and just because a poster expresses concern about a particular policy in a particular school it does not imply disrespect for the teaching profession. Surely it is right that any profession should be willing to examine its practices and, if they are then thought to be unfair or damaging, to change them?

My feeling is that toilets should never be locked and if there are problems with bullying, skiving or general indiscipline, they should be addressed in other ways. It is surely not beyond the wit of a capable head teacher and her team to deal with this matter without risking the embarrassment and humiliation of some pupils?

I suppose my perception of your opinions from reading your posts is that you think most schools/teachers deliberately find ways to make life difficult for students!

Because my experience, both as a parent/gandparent and as a teacher, of schools is that most bust a bloomin' gut to do what they can for kids we are bound to disagree!

rosequartz her family think that, with the use of a special pass, (I don't know the details of how it is used) my DGN is starting to overcome her anxiety.
Penstemmon I'm not sure that this was done. I also think that this information should be presented to the pupils as part of the liaison meetings that occur at the time of change from Primary to Sec. school, explaining why it is school policy and assuring pupils that passes are to be made available to those who genuinely need them...... or would this blow the situation out of all proportion? I do not have the answers to this tricky problem.....

Penstemmon

I never said there were many children suffering from bladder or bowel disorders.

I did not asccuse you of 'saying' the pissy pants comment , I used it as a phrase as I believe that is how you have eluded to children who only want a loo, god forbid in class time. I'll stand by it reading back your posts.

We obviously are not going to agree on this one.

I wondered if the school where OGM great niece attends had sent a letter home to parents explaining the context for the change of practice and if the letter invited families with any concerns to speak to the school? That would be good practice when changing a policy.

OGM
I just wondered if your great-niece has been bullied in the lavatories at school and that is a reason for wanting to go when no-one else is in there?
Perhaps some gentle questioning could elicit more information.
It is disruptive for the teacher and the rest of the class if children want to keep going off to the loo during lesson time - one does it then they all start thinking about doing it.

I hope whatever the problem is, it gets sorted.

roseq

I posted earlier that if a child has a problem with incontinence and, in the case of girls, very heavy periods, then I think the school should be sympathetic and allow him/her to slip away to the loo if need be.

However, I do think that, for the same reason that the lavatories are locked, there will always be that disruptive element who want to go in the middle of lessons just to be awkward, just to demonstrate that they have a 'right' to be able to go when they want, and just to 'cock a snook' at the teacher.

The school should also be clamping down on bullying behaviour - perhaps the lavatories need to be patrolled, or shared with staff as someone posted earlier.

I believe that most pupils after the age of 6 or so are able to last between lessons unless they have a problem in which case I am sure the school will be sympathetic.

POGS You are wrong, so so wrong! I don't know where I have said anything that makes you think that.

I called kids 'little pissy pants who can't hold it in' and have no right to needing the loo when their body tells them, the teacher will be in charge of their education and all bodily functions. utter nonsense!

I have pointed out that the gaps between lessons / breaks are not so long so most kids should be fine, I have suggested that most schools would make exceptions for kids with medical needs, I have posted a link from a school describing their policy on medical care. Nowhere have I said kids should be made to suffer! It has been my experience, over a long working life in schools that it really is not a major issue! if a kid has a specific need schools cater for them!

I do disagree with your view that there are numbers of children suffering bladder and bowel disorders or anxiety as a result of schools expecting students to use the toilet a break times.

GA, that was a dreadful experience. Nowadays, I think girls are able to speak much more frankly about menstrual issues, even to male teachers, so perhaps that kind of situation will be less likely to occur.

No probs Pogs.
Let me know how you get on. I can't do too much as I am so far removed from my DGN.
grannyactivist 's post has added to my concerns tho'.

Oldgreymare/greyduster.

My sincere apologies

I am grateful you raised this dilemma it has pushed me into trying to do something!

GA poor you, what an awful experience.

Do you mean me Pogs.
I do intend to chat to my sister and to pass on all the useful info (DGN is obviously her DGD!)
Like you, I had no intention of criticising teachers, but I do query the decision, where made, to deny pupils reasonable access to toilets which I consider to be a basic human right.
If bullying or inappropriate behaviour is such an 'issue' in a school that it is felt necessary to close toilets then I think the school has very serious problems.
Some years ago, with another teacher, I conducted a survey on bullying at a large upper school where I was working. Several sites were identified as being 'hotspots', I don't remember toilets being the most popular, these included corridors outside classrooms, pathways sheltered by hedges, queues in the dining room, P.E. changing rooms etc.
The school then seriuosly re-examined its Policy on Bullying.

In my first year at Grammar School I was in a maths lesson and unexpectedly I felt my period begin. The school rule was that toilets should not be used during lesson times except in cases of emergency. It was the final lesson of the day and my teacher was a man; I was very shy. It took me about ten minutes to get up the courage to put my hand up and ask to be excused to go to the toilet only to be told that as it was nearly home time I must wait. I sat, in great pain, with an ever growing puddle of blood gathering beneath me. The bell rang and everyone left the classroom except for me, I was too embarrassed to move until I was alone. I ran to the cloakroom, grabbed my coat and ran home with blood covered legs.
Even writing about it now, fifty years later, my cheeks are burning with remembered shame.

golden girl

I owe you an apology for not following through on your post which mentioned ERIC.

I have taken more time since posting and I have now checked things out a little more.

Thank you.

greyduster.

Look at the site above,' ERIC', also 'My School Gate , not being allowed to go the toilet during class'. / netmums have a few posts too.

Penstemmon

I did say I didn't want to fall out with anybody over this but to be honest you have appeared to take a very high minded attitude and at no time have you accepted that this could even remotely be happening or is a possible issue of health. You seem to be more concerned to view this as an attack on the teaching profession and basically called kids 'little pissy pants who can't hold it in' and have no right to needing the loo when their body tells them, the teacher will be in charge of their education and all bodily functions. .

I am determined to give this matter a little more attention and hopefully things will be sorted amicably. I think that CCTV is good and I hope greyduster having brought this subject up you will consider it too.