A teacher in every nursery?

Are we talking about private nurseries here where some babies go from the age of about four months to pre-school, or do they mean state nurseries attached to primary schools and Early Years groups (non-maintained)?

I only have experience of nurseries/playgroups as a parent and grandparent and I must say the one DD attended was excellent in every way. It was attached to a state primary school, run by a qualified teacher (non-graduate but with a teaching certificate and she was also Early Years Co-ordinator) and two or three nursery nurses.
DGD attends an Early Years group (non-maintained); I think two of the staff are qualified to degree level.
However, what both these places have in common is that the teachers/leaders were/are excellent, interacting with the children, developing their language skills (in the case of DGD interacting in two languages).

Snack time is at the same time - unco-ordinated snack times would result in chaos! and it is good for children to sit down and eat/drink together as some of them may not do this at home.

I am sure that most of the problems that arise with young children and their language skills arise in the home rather than in the nurseries/playgroups. Not every child attends a nursery or playgroup anyway and teachers seem to be having to take over more and more of what should be parental responsibility - children starting school unable to use cutlery, not potty trained, unable to hold a pencil, not having seen a book and without the language skills to enable them to cope with school.

Agree with you, Jalima. I only have in depth experience of the nursery my own children attended and I can't fault it. My children were happy there and well-prepared for the more formal primary school. I've been a 'helper' in a primary school and I was quite appalled how many quite young children just wouldn't do as they were told, answered back and even swore.

Just found this article about Finnish early years education, which is quite interesting www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/finland-working-to-expand-early-education/2014/03/04/571aacf8-a3ba-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

The only experience I have apart from DC and DGC attending nurseries/playgroups/Early Years is that the nursery teacher/Early Years Coordinator mentioned in my post above was my BF. She had noticed the deterioriation in developmental skills of 3 year olds in the years before she retired and her successor noticed even more.

That is interesting about Finnish early years too; Australia has gone the other way as they used to start school at 6 and then changed about 3 years ago to rising 5.

This idea was being mooted when I ran Pre-Schools back in the 1980s and 90s under the ethos of the good old fashioned Pre-School Learning Alliance when we were all taught that under 5s (and say it softly, many under 6s and 7s) learn best through play that is carefully devised to encourage and aid the children's all round development. I even gave evidence at a Parliamentary sub-committee to that end. Powers that be wanted to reduce the adult ratio and have graduates with teaching qualifications. We would all argue that 3 and four year olds do not need a graduate to sit on when they felt unsettled or a graduate to change wet knickers when someone had got a bit too involved with an activity.
Our Pre-School was one of the best in the area and we had a wonderful staff that were all Mums with personal experience who had studied hard to gain qualifications that were specific to under 5s in everything from Special Needs, Child protection, Curriculum planning etc etc. Our staff to child ratio was often well above the legal limit of 1 - 8 for 4 to 5 year olds often being more like 1 - 6. We had time to stay with children on a one-to-one basis for however long they needed we also had so much fun and joy from seeing our charges move onto 'big' school raring to go and totally enthusiastic about the next step. We could work in small groups thoroughly exploring a task or activity. Interestingly, I often had conversations about this subject with the primary school teachers I liaised with and many were of the opinion that they felt they far preferred their own jobs and would not want to teach under 5s!!
The trouble is this argument gets blurred by the semantics involved. As Pre-school leaders we were encouraged by certain agencies not to use the word 'teach' and not to see ourselves as 'teachers' because we were not graduates (although many of us did qualify later on). This would lead to some parents and other professionals viewing us as amateurs that were just dabbling in education when we were in fact specifically trained to do a very good job that was a complex mixture of carer, educator, nurse and social worker.
I do not have a problem with graduates being employed to look after very young children. If the courses are properly aimed at the educating and care of under 5s with all that entails then that will be marvellous. However the adult to child ratio is far more important. Children of this age need lots of encouragement and attention and their individual needs are so varied at this stage. The development different between any two 4 year olds can be immense and its up to the staff to meet and advance all those little individuals.

Good post Hilda.

Not all children who cannot talk, or go to the toilet properly have problem parents who will not talk to them.
There is another thread on here about autism.
Just saying. There seems to be a propensity to blame the parents here.

No, I realise that and BF would have been very aware indeed and the first person to pick up on any problems; however her successor had remarked on the startling increase in the number of children starting nursery at 3 who had not been toilet trained.

Some children who do not speak at 3 don't have a problem at all - they speak when they are ready and not before (one in our family).

This thread is not about autism. It is about parents who don't encourage language (or other essential skills) in their children.

And I assumed it was not about children with special needs who may still be incontinent (DD has worked in a special needs unit attached to a primary school) - some children are starting nursery at 3 or even reception not having been toilet trained because their parents just didn't bother.

so I was side-tracking there [!]

sorry havent had time to read all posts, Just about to go to work in a day nursery I joined last November. Having worked in childcare for over 30 years I have just one thing to say. Bring back the NNEB nursery nurse!!!!!

I agree re the NNEB qualification. I have worked as a teacher in nursery classes with different NNEB and NVQ/Nursery diploma staff. I have to say that my experience was that those with NNEB, generally, had a far better set of skills, knowledge and understanding about babies and young children and their attitude and approach to work was also far more professional.

The entry levels for many current courses are low. It is important to have bright, able and articulate people working with babies and children. Not anyone who likes kids is good at supporting their development and providing good play opportunities for them. As a teacher and headteacher I was never too grand to change a pair of wet pants or to sit on the floor and share stories or play games..that was my job! I have seen some brilliant play groups , day care nurseries and some dire ones too. The best were led by people with higher level qualifications. The more we think childcare is to be staffed by less well qualified the less successful it ill be. Small children need professional care and support to develop well.

So autistic children do not count on this thread, then? Neither do children with other special needs? Have I got that right?
They go to nurseries.
My husband and I were often phoned up to bring my grandson home because he wouldn't let the young ones settle. He couldn't talk and tell them that it was the noise of the younger ones which was upsetting him.

Fortunately his family moved to a surestart area, and they discovered he had autism. The head of his nursery was a special needs teacher.

Not only should all nurseries have a specialist in language, but all nurseries should have someone trained in special needs, so the problem can be picked up earlier.

My last words on this thread, as obviously children like my grandson do not matter.

Don't be so prickly, dj. Don't assume that because posters are talking about the general level qualifications and training of staff in nurseries, they don't care about your grandson and others like him. Of course children with autism matter. Of course staff at nurseries need to know all they can about the condition. Of course parents with any suspicion about the condition, or worries about their child's development, should stir it to help them. Of course staff should be alert to problems and do whatever is necessary to get treatment and attention for them.

But there are children who arrive at nursery without special difficulties and needs, because they have not had the experiences that all children need before they can progress to "proper" learning. That is what many of these posts are about.

dj sometimes it is a parental failure! The majority of parents do a great job but sadly there will be parents who, for all kinds of reasons, do not do what is needed to help kids reach the general milestones expected for most children.
Children with SEND can be really well supported by their family but equally, as with kids without SEND, some are poorly supported. That is life!

All nurseries are expected to have SEN specialists available to support the nursery staff plan and support children with SEND. Sometimes with very young children it is hard to know if the problems seen in a group are because a child has SEND or because they have just not matured / had the right experiences to know how to cope in a social setting.

Does that include private nurseries?

On P.29 of the Statutory Framework for the Early Years Foundation Stage
Setting the standards for learning,development and care for children from birth to five
Special educational needs
3.67.Providers must have arrangements in place to support children with SEN or
disabilities. Maintained nursery schools and other providers who are funded by the
local authority to deliver early education places must have regard to the Special
Educational Needs (SEN) Code of Practice.
Maintained nursery schools mustidentify a member of staff to act as Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator and other providers (in group provision) are expected to identify a SENCO.

Most private nurseries will be funded by the LA for places.

As Elegran pointed out, there are children who arrive at nurseries without specific learning difficulties but who have, or can develop, special needs because of lack of stimulation. These can, with the help of qualified and. experienced nursery staff, overcome some of the problems they experience with language in particular.

Just catching up after a day away. Dj ,yes, SEN need to be picked up earlier too, but sometimes very difficult when children develop at different rates and a non-talker / non socialiser at 2 and a half may be an integrated little chatterbox at five.
sometimes as parents and grandparents there is an instinct that something is wrong and it doesn't get addressed until well into primary years.

I think the general consensus on this thread is that early years deserve a professional level of care. I don't think this should be limited to 1 or 2 staff experts, but should be consistent across nurseries . My understanding of nurseries where children may be left all day is that they often have different rooms for different ages and stages and that it is the older children who may be more likely to encounter someone with specific childcare qualifications. Happy to be corrected on this point

My understanding is that ALL nursery staff are qualified. There are different levels as with TA's which reflect the standard they have reached and should carry higher pay.

This applies to ALL nurseries. A nursery attached to a school usually has an early years teacher.

An early years teacher with QTS has the same qualifications as any other teacher: primary or secondary.

www.childcare-courses.co.uk/how-to-get-a-nvq-in-childcare/

Is an example of the courses available. However in my experience the quality of the training and assessment is variable across the many different training providers ranging from excellent to dire!

Yes Pennstemmon it stands for Qualified Teacher Status most schools with a nursery attached insist on these in their nursery class(es)

NVQ's can taken at different levels as I'm sure you know (?) usually 1-4.

Those with higher level NVQ's are certainly not dire.

Thanks Anya I did not say that the people were dire, I said the courses were sometimes dire!

I have QTS.

I have a B.Ed (Hons) as that was the qualifying requirement of the day, tacked on to your first degree. Or there was just the Teachers' Certificate. Though I don't know why I said 'just' as it was a perfectly good qualification - at least it was after they upgraded it to a three year course.

QTS was after my time - I'm thinking they were the same qualification just different names, as the powers that be just like to change things for the sake of change. As ever.