A teacher in every nursery?

On P.29 of the Statutory Framework for the Early Years Foundation Stage
Setting the standards for learning,development and care for children from birth to five
Special educational needs
3.67.Providers must have arrangements in place to support children with SEN or
disabilities. Maintained nursery schools and other providers who are funded by the
local authority to deliver early education places must have regard to the Special
Educational Needs (SEN) Code of Practice.
Maintained nursery schools mustidentify a member of staff to act as Special Educational Needs Co-ordinator and other providers (in group provision) are expected to identify a SENCO.

Most private nurseries will be funded by the LA for places.

Does that include private nurseries?

dj sometimes it is a parental failure! The majority of parents do a great job but sadly there will be parents who, for all kinds of reasons, do not do what is needed to help kids reach the general milestones expected for most children.
Children with SEND can be really well supported by their family but equally, as with kids without SEND, some are poorly supported. That is life!

All nurseries are expected to have SEN specialists available to support the nursery staff plan and support children with SEND. Sometimes with very young children it is hard to know if the problems seen in a group are because a child has SEND or because they have just not matured / had the right experiences to know how to cope in a social setting.

Don't be so prickly, dj. Don't assume that because posters are talking about the general level qualifications and training of staff in nurseries, they don't care about your grandson and others like him. Of course children with autism matter. Of course staff at nurseries need to know all they can about the condition. Of course parents with any suspicion about the condition, or worries about their child's development, should stir it to help them. Of course staff should be alert to problems and do whatever is necessary to get treatment and attention for them.

But there are children who arrive at nursery without special difficulties and needs, because they have not had the experiences that all children need before they can progress to "proper" learning. That is what many of these posts are about.

So autistic children do not count on this thread, then? Neither do children with other special needs? Have I got that right?
They go to nurseries.
My husband and I were often phoned up to bring my grandson home because he wouldn't let the young ones settle. He couldn't talk and tell them that it was the noise of the younger ones which was upsetting him.

Fortunately his family moved to a surestart area, and they discovered he had autism. The head of his nursery was a special needs teacher.

Not only should all nurseries have a specialist in language, but all nurseries should have someone trained in special needs, so the problem can be picked up earlier.

My last words on this thread, as obviously children like my grandson do not matter.

I agree re the NNEB qualification. I have worked as a teacher in nursery classes with different NNEB and NVQ/Nursery diploma staff. I have to say that my experience was that those with NNEB, generally, had a far better set of skills, knowledge and understanding about babies and young children and their attitude and approach to work was also far more professional.

The entry levels for many current courses are low. It is important to have bright, able and articulate people working with babies and children. Not anyone who likes kids is good at supporting their development and providing good play opportunities for them. As a teacher and headteacher I was never too grand to change a pair of wet pants or to sit on the floor and share stories or play games..that was my job! I have seen some brilliant play groups , day care nurseries and some dire ones too. The best were led by people with higher level qualifications. The more we think childcare is to be staffed by less well qualified the less successful it ill be. Small children need professional care and support to develop well.

sorry havent had time to read all posts, Just about to go to work in a day nursery I joined last November. Having worked in childcare for over 30 years I have just one thing to say. Bring back the NNEB nursery nurse!!!!!

so I was side-tracking there [!]

And I assumed it was not about children with special needs who may still be incontinent (DD has worked in a special needs unit attached to a primary school) - some children are starting nursery at 3 or even reception not having been toilet trained because their parents just didn't bother.

This thread is not about autism. It is about parents who don't encourage language (or other essential skills) in their children.

No, I realise that and BF would have been very aware indeed and the first person to pick up on any problems; however her successor had remarked on the startling increase in the number of children starting nursery at 3 who had not been toilet trained.

Some children who do not speak at 3 don't have a problem at all - they speak when they are ready and not before (one in our family).

Not all children who cannot talk, or go to the toilet properly have problem parents who will not talk to them.
There is another thread on here about autism.
Just saying. There seems to be a propensity to blame the parents here.

Good post Hilda.

This idea was being mooted when I ran Pre-Schools back in the 1980s and 90s under the ethos of the good old fashioned Pre-School Learning Alliance when we were all taught that under 5s (and say it softly, many under 6s and 7s) learn best through play that is carefully devised to encourage and aid the children's all round development. I even gave evidence at a Parliamentary sub-committee to that end. Powers that be wanted to reduce the adult ratio and have graduates with teaching qualifications. We would all argue that 3 and four year olds do not need a graduate to sit on when they felt unsettled or a graduate to change wet knickers when someone had got a bit too involved with an activity.
Our Pre-School was one of the best in the area and we had a wonderful staff that were all Mums with personal experience who had studied hard to gain qualifications that were specific to under 5s in everything from Special Needs, Child protection, Curriculum planning etc etc. Our staff to child ratio was often well above the legal limit of 1 - 8 for 4 to 5 year olds often being more like 1 - 6. We had time to stay with children on a one-to-one basis for however long they needed we also had so much fun and joy from seeing our charges move onto 'big' school raring to go and totally enthusiastic about the next step. We could work in small groups thoroughly exploring a task or activity. Interestingly, I often had conversations about this subject with the primary school teachers I liaised with and many were of the opinion that they felt they far preferred their own jobs and would not want to teach under 5s!!
The trouble is this argument gets blurred by the semantics involved. As Pre-school leaders we were encouraged by certain agencies not to use the word 'teach' and not to see ourselves as 'teachers' because we were not graduates (although many of us did qualify later on). This would lead to some parents and other professionals viewing us as amateurs that were just dabbling in education when we were in fact specifically trained to do a very good job that was a complex mixture of carer, educator, nurse and social worker.
I do not have a problem with graduates being employed to look after very young children. If the courses are properly aimed at the educating and care of under 5s with all that entails then that will be marvellous. However the adult to child ratio is far more important. Children of this age need lots of encouragement and attention and their individual needs are so varied at this stage. The development different between any two 4 year olds can be immense and its up to the staff to meet and advance all those little individuals.

That is interesting about Finnish early years too; Australia has gone the other way as they used to start school at 6 and then changed about 3 years ago to rising 5.

The only experience I have apart from DC and DGC attending nurseries/playgroups/Early Years is that the nursery teacher/Early Years Coordinator mentioned in my post above was my BF. She had noticed the deterioriation in developmental skills of 3 year olds in the years before she retired and her successor noticed even more.

Agree with you, Jalima. I only have in depth experience of the nursery my own children attended and I can't fault it. My children were happy there and well-prepared for the more formal primary school. I've been a 'helper' in a primary school and I was quite appalled how many quite young children just wouldn't do as they were told, answered back and even swore.

Just found this article about Finnish early years education, which is quite interesting www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/finland-working-to-expand-early-education/2014/03/04/571aacf8-a3ba-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

Are we talking about private nurseries here where some babies go from the age of about four months to pre-school, or do they mean state nurseries attached to primary schools and Early Years groups (non-maintained)?

I only have experience of nurseries/playgroups as a parent and grandparent and I must say the one DD attended was excellent in every way. It was attached to a state primary school, run by a qualified teacher (non-graduate but with a teaching certificate and she was also Early Years Co-ordinator) and two or three nursery nurses.
DGD attends an Early Years group (non-maintained); I think two of the staff are qualified to degree level.
However, what both these places have in common is that the teachers/leaders were/are excellent, interacting with the children, developing their language skills (in the case of DGD interacting in two languages).

Snack time is at the same time - unco-ordinated snack times would result in chaos! and it is good for children to sit down and eat/drink together as some of them may not do this at home.

I am sure that most of the problems that arise with young children and their language skills arise in the home rather than in the nurseries/playgroups. Not every child attends a nursery or playgroup anyway and teachers seem to be having to take over more and more of what should be parental responsibility - children starting school unable to use cutlery, not potty trained, unable to hold a pencil, not having seen a book and without the language skills to enable them to cope with school.

Gill, From what I understand, the graduate Early Years qualification is a bit of a con. It isn't a 'proper' teaching qualification, but it's being sold to graduates as a fast track to work with 0-5 year olds. They don't get paid a teacher's salary, but the course is free, unlike a PGCE. I know a couple of graduates who've done the course, but they felt they were misled and are now intending to do PGCEs. I don't know the details of the course, but I would guess an NVQ3/4 covers the same ground. Apparently there are few jobs for those with EYTS. Nurseries can't afford the extra pay and they can only teach in EY (reception) in primary schools, which means they're not an attractive proposition and can't teach mixed age children in smaller schools.

It really isnt rocket science to most of us, lets admit it, that the more you talk to children, the better their language skills. Likewise, unless you have children sitting down to eat at a table, using cutlery, however basic, and waiting their turn rather than grabbing stuff off a plate, they will not learn to do so. I hate to sound like an old fart grump, but I get so angry when I see Mothers walking to school, perhaps with another child in a pushchair, and the Mother is having a conversation on her mobile while the child/children walk along beside her in silence. What happened to a chat about their day/what they will do after school/what they will have for tea? Poor little souls. I am being judgemental and I do no apologise for being so. I dont think nurseries necessarily need a language acquisition specialist qualified to graduate level, as the standards of pre-school/nursery qualifications are quite good now, and I think it would be a shame if yet another group were denied access to their chosen profession because of lack of academic achievement, this has already happened in the nursing profession. A well run Ofsted inspected pre-school or nursery will be well aware of milestones and language skills.

Lillie I don't think your picture of a nursery class is typical - " I am not a fan of nurseries at the best of times and find it unnatural that 20 toddlers should all have to visit the toilet at the same time after break, all have their snack at an appointed hour, and only be allowed to play with the sand and water when the activity has been set up ....... so heaven help them when they, (especially the struggling ones), are made to sit down and have their language needs addressed."

This regimentation is not what is intended. Professionals with a knowledge of child language development won't "make them sit down and have their language needs addressed" They will provide opportunities for them to speak about what they are playing with at that moment, listen to them, talk to them, play counting games and naming games, all informally. Employing a professional is not the same as employing a ringmaster with a whip and a chair!

All having their snack at the same time? Of course - because if all 20 eat their snack at a different time, they will want to join the others who are playing, and carrying food around everywhere is not a good thing. Families have got out of the habilt of eating together, but it is an important part of socialisation, and a moment to sit quietly all together. In the nursery I used to run, we spent the time as everyone was gathering for snack time in talking together, and singing nursery rhymes and songs - all things which help prepare them for reading without seeming like "lessons".

After the snack, the toilet and the handwashing. Did you know that the human elimination system is stimulated by eating, and after 20 minutes, a toilet visit is signalled by the innards? Taking one child to the toilet occupies a helper for several minutes, leaving the rest with one attendant fewer. Taking 20 of them, one after the other, could keep her out of the playroom for an hour. Taking them all at the same time means that they are "processed" in one "go" (to use a relevant word) and the helper can then return with them to the main room to join in supervising everyone. This doesn't mean that they are regimented and have to perform, or that no-one can "go" at any other time.

The sand and water are usually set up at the start of the day and stay there. Why waste time setting it up after the children are all in the room ?

Do NOT need more!!!

Absolutely Imperfect the 2 yr check is already statutory we do need more!

daphnedill my DD will not have the same choices as I did and will have to send her DS to nursery full time from next September. It makes me very sad. I think he will be absolutely fine - she will be the one who finds it very hard!

I agree that given the amount of time many children have to spend in nursery, it is really important that standards are set high and maintained - through inspection of the adults though, not 'testing' of little ones.

There is an element of personality to this as well. My brother's two sons were treated the same as toddlers. When they each started school it was obvious the youngest had far better communication skills and would converse like an adult at times.
They both now have good jobs which involve public speaking at times.