Yesterday was the awful school appeal day!

I have asked gillybob to provide the schools admissions criteria. She seems to think that all places are taken up with pupils from feeder primary schools and siblings. The LA's admissions team should be able to give information about the lowest priority on the list who was offered a place last year. It should all be available in writing.

The current guidelines on distance are:

"As a general guide, transport arrangements should not require a child to make several changes on public transport resulting in an unreasonably long journey time. Best practice suggests that the maximum each way length of journey for a child of primary school age to be 45 minutes and for secondary school age 75 minutes, but these should be regarded as the maximum."

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/445407/Home_to_School_Travel_and_Transport_Guidance.pdf.

If your grandchild is refused a place at the secondary school of choice and you fit in the schools admission criteria and you find out that places have been given to others as in ' The children travel miles from where they live in the next town to attend and will be guaranteed a place in the school my DGC can see from their window.' then if this is proved at an appeal you will win. It depends on the schools admissions criteria.If the children of present staff is one of the criteria then that's different. Not many schools have this.This only applies in September not mid year.If it's a church school then they include regular attendance at church within the area which can cover the next town.

@path20

It sounds as though your LA takes a pragmatic approach to transport costs. When my appeal failed and I applied to the nearest school with places, the LA had to provide a taxi for six miles (12 miles round trip). It must have cost a fortune and it was amazing how quickly a place was found in the school we could see from our bedroom windows :-)

The two/three mile rule doesn't hold in all areas. Most of the children in my district already travel over three miles to school. It certainly wasn't considered a valid reason in my case.

For goodness sake, trisher. There are hundreds of appeals every week and almost every single one fails. There is an official School Appeals Code and, as far I can tell, the appeal panel followed it. This is nothing to do with human rights. The LA is providing an education and would almost certainly provide transport to the nearest school with places. If gillybob felt she was dealt with discourteously, she should complain, but it won't make any difference to the outcome.

School admissions and appeals codes are there to protect the rights of the applicants as well as the other pupils already in the school. Gone are the days when heads and LAs could keep places in reserve for children moving into the area. The illusion of school choice put paid to that, because schools are obliged to fill all their places up to their Published Admission Number.

I sit on school appeal panels. The only people who are involved in the final decision are the five members( sometimes three)of the panel. The school are there to put their case as to why they cannot accept your child.They take no part whatsoever in the decision.
I often sit on the panel when children have moved into a new area and there are no places in the nearest schools.It is very difficult then to make the school take another pupil.
The government have strict guidelines. If the KS1 classes have reached their maximum numbers of thirty then the panel are not allowed to put another child into that class unless there are exceptional circumstances.Unfortunately having to walk nearly two miles to the school with places is not an exceptional circumstance. It would be if the child was disabled. In this case a place would be found even though the numbers would exceed thirty.
With KS2 children it is not as difficult to exceed thirty but the reasons again must be exceptional.
In our area the school offered must be within two miles( as the crow flies) for a KS1 child. If the only school with a place is over two miles away then the appeal will be upheld and a place will have to be given at the school appealed for.
If the child is in KS2 then the distance is three miles.

You seem to have been treated badly GillyBob, especially as you were not given the correct papers ten days before.You may have the right to have your appeals heard again. Unfortunately the decision will most likely be the same unless your circumstances have changed.
Have your grandchildren been given school places within the correct distance GillyBob?
I find that when the school give their reasons as to why they cannot accept another child they state their case but are usually sympathetic towards the child and parents. On the odd occasion you get someone representing the school who can be quite arrogant and has no sympathy whatsoever.This almost certainly happened in your case and it will not have gone unnoticed by the panel.
I'm sorry your appeal was unsuccessful and I would check with the authority that the children are on the school waiting list.If the school is an academy they will have their own waiting list probably. You will have to renew every year.

Just wondering if your Local authority have instituted the UN Constitution on Children's Rights. If so the appeal should have been conducted differently and your GCs should have been given the right to attend and to speak, Their attendance could have been for just a short time dependent on their age and their ability to understand the proceedings. If your local authority have not adopted the Constitution can I ask you to request that they do so. It won't make any difference to your appeal but it is an important point and it sounds as if your GS even at six would have been quite capable of contributing to the proceedings

Article 12 says that every child has the right to express their views, feelings and wishes in all matters affecting them, and to have their views considered and taken seriously. This principle recognises children and young people as actors in their own lives and applies at all times, throughout a child’s life.
Read more- www.unicef.org.uk/rights-respecting-schools/about-the-award/child-rights-in-schools/participation/

I did this several years ago when my son was refused permission to attend an appeal at 13. I contacted a local councillor who was active in human rights and the Convention was adopted. It means that people tend to behave better and realise they are dealing with children not with numbers.

PS. If there were failings in the appeals process itself, the LGO can get hold of the clerk's notes made during the appeal.

Complain about the appeals process

You can complain about the way the appeal was carried out, but you can’t complain about the decision itself.

www.gov.uk/schools-admissions/appealing-a-schools-decision

I really am sorry to say this, but there is almost zilch chance of overturning the appeal decision. The reason the procedure was tightened up was to stop friends of councillors, MPs and governors, etc getting a place 'on the wink'.

You can complain about the conduct of the appeal panel, as I did. Although my complaint was upheld and retraining of the chair of the panel was recommended, I didn't ever receive an apology. It took me months to get over the decision. With hindsight, I should have stopped feeling so aggrieved and just moved on.

You need to check the school's/LA's policy on waiting lists. The children won't automatically go on it and you will probably need to reapply every year. You won't be allowed to go to an appeal - you just need to make a formal application to go on the waiting list (or to be kept on it).

gilly I am so, so sorry at this outcome.

My suggestion would be for you to go with your daughter to her M.P.'s surgery and say that you want to apprise him/her of the failures of the appeals process. Take with you a written report of how the process was demeaning and the minutes, highlighted where you say there are discrepancies. It won't get your grandchildren the places they want, but it may help other parents in the future so that they don't have to endure such awful behaviours.

This has been mishandled in a most unprofessional manner by all concerned.

I wonder if, as you were present at the meeting, you and your DiL can tell the LEA that you do not approve the minutes and reject them as a true record of the proceedings. Send a letter to the chief education officer, copies to the leader of the council and your local councillor - also to the head teacher. I think that just about covers it.

Apologies again for boring everyone to tears over this but I wonder does anyone know whether the children will automatically go onto a waiting list after a refused appeal of would we have to reapply? Is there even any way of knowing whether the children would reach the top of the list if they were on it.

We are already on waiting lists for the other feeder schools but don't think I could go through that appeal process again anytime soon.

gilly I really feel for you and your family. This kind of thing ought not to occur, but it does.

After all this has revealed I'd really NOT want any grandchild of mine to attend this school.

Some of the minutes taken are attached to the refusal letters Jalima but quite a lot of what was actually said has been changed slightly and/or twisted. For one example I asked why (despite numerous prior requests) were we given the full school plan (square footage etc) only a few seconds before we went into to the appeal hearing. The LEA said it was a mistake and that it was supposed to be made available 10 days prior but it was an oversight. In the hearing I said I wanted it on record that the LEA had failed to provide information and that handing us a 5 page document only seconds before had was unacceptable. The minutes state that "we requested a further copy if this document and that a copy was kindly provided" . Total lies. The Bloomin' thing was only signed on the day of the hearing !

Anyway iI could go over and over it until my brain turns to mush but it isn't going to change anything at all. And yes, you're probably right after seeing the way she acted and her attitude maybe it's best that my lovely grandchildren aren't going to her school anyway. She would have probably made them suffer.

The part that sticks out for me is the LEA woman. Wtf!!. If anything, you should be able to make some kind of representations about her behaviour-she's a public servant, in the pay of us and, yes, you. Shocking behaviour.

It reminds me of having to interview before the LEA panel as a wannabe teacher and the council reps would sit there and read the bloody paper.

Disgusting, ignorant behaviour not befitting of a public servant.

Going on and on about "lifestyle choices" , "seats in my sons van" earnings, debts and other very personal things.
That is absolutely out of order
Perhaps you should have had a representative with you, however, hindsight is a wonderful thing and you never expect people like this to be so nasty and personal; you expect them to behave in a professional way.

Re the head teacher - yes, would you want them to go there after that?

There should be minutes of this meeting - can you request a copy of them?

2 places were given to children between June and October (who according to the LEA) were higher on the waiting list. This does not tally with the info I received from the school secretary either in April when we originally applied or in September when the first appeal was cancelled at the last minute. The whole thing stinks to the high heaven and although I am gutted for DGD in year 6 in that she probably won't get into the secondary school I am beginning to wonder whether I would really want the children to go to a school where children are not called children, just burdens on her resources.

The people from the LEA behaved the worst of all trisher . One "lady" interrogated my DDiL until she cried. Going on and on about "lifestyle choices" , "seats in my sons van" earnings, debts and other very personal things.

As an anecdote I told the appeal that my DGS (6) amazed us by being voted a school councillor and the existing head telling me that he was a valuable member of the small team and a very popular little boy in school. Apparently he stood up at the town hall and asked that all children in his school should have fruit at lunch time. The head said that she would do her best to try and arrange this. The women from the LEA looked at me as though I was an alien just beamed up from planet Zog and without cracking a smile and very sarcastically one of them said "delightful...... Now moving on"

Yes, they should have first priority on any waiting list.

gillybob you haven't let anyone down and you have been treated appallingly. Regardless of how oversubscribed her school is the head has behaved very unprofessionally and the chair of the appeal should have been more sympathetic.
I think you should contact your local LEA and make a formal complaint about both of these people and about the way your appeal was held. You are obviously a strong and resourceful person and your DD is so fortunate to have your support. There may be other people who will find the process even more frightening.
Can I also ask if your GCs have been placed on the waiting list for the school? If so you are entitled to know where they are on this and they can move up and down.
Stay strong!

That doesn't surprise me at all gillybob
DS (in his 20s, working at a local firm) was on the list for a council flat years ago; he got nowhere except pushed further and further down the list - but lo and behold, the grandson of the then mayor (still in his teens) was allocated a lovely council flat in a prime location, not far from his mother's lovely 3 bedroomed council house.
I was told when I went for an LA job years ago when I moved here that 'it's not what you know, it's who you know around here' by another candidate who got the job (despite her not having any qualifications).
I did get a better job elsewhere.

It isn't fair Jalima as many of the children in the feeder live nowhere near. You should see the line of Range Rovers outside the school on a morning. The school is in the border of a very posh village and all the yummy mummy's and daddy's just have to get their little darlings in there. The fact that they live miles away is irrelevant it seems.

It has got me wondering now whether the head had it in her head that because the children originally came from a large council estate (before they moved) that they were "the kind of children" she wouldn't want darkening her doors.

I don't think you have let the children down at all. You have obviously investigated every angle and have had to go through what sounds like a very upsetting appeal process.

I think what appears to be the very aggressive and adversarial tone of the appeal is absolutely appalling. It is very unprofessional and insulting to make unfounded comments about people's so-called lifestyle.

Is it worth involving your MP?

You got it in one Jalima local councillor is chair of Governors at the school .

I know of at least 2 people who's children/ grandchildren attend the secondary school. They should never have got into the feeder schools as they did not fit any category for admission however one is a head of department at a different school and the other is a teacher at the secondary in question. The children travel miles from where they live in the next town to attend and will be guaranteed a place in the school my DGC can see from their window.

It is making me very angry and frustrated as there's nothing whatsoever we can do about it.

No, you have not let them down, you have done your very best for them.