Student fees

Nfk the report I saw mentioned the reduction being for arts degrees and also contained the info that Science and Engineering degrees cost more to provide.

Nfk one of my neighbour’s children has been offered an unconditional place to study music at a London College. Her only instrument is keyboard/piano and she’s only passed exams up to Grade 3 in theory and practical. She is studying ‘Music’ at ‘A’ Level, but what kind of course it is I cannot imagine as when we had a bit of a bash at Christmas someone asked her to play some carols. The only carol book we had was one I use to teach my 8-year old GD. She couldn’t sight read it.

If this is typical of the standard of some of those entering some of these dodgy university colleges, which seem to have proliferated since fees were introduced then I’m astounded.

Not all degrees need to be in ‘worthwhile subjects’ that lead to ‘proper jibs’. We need all sorts and that includes academics and those who study fir the sake to simply learning.

Welshwife I thought that the proposal was that degrees in medicine, engineering, teaching would be subsidised as they were the ‘useful’ ones we need.

I heard on the radio that there is concern about the number of universities now offering uncondional degrees. So many kids aren’t bothering about getting their final grades and are often jumping into the wrong course at the wrong place. It doesn’t matter to the university as when they drop out the university has already got the fees paid for the complete course. The place can be refilled and more money claimed. The young person is then left with lower A level grades than s/he should have got and having to start over again. This cannot be right.

The pressure of horrendous debt sadly discourages students from applying to Uni, as some posters have experienced.

Under the guise of "austerity" many rights and benefits have been withdrawn. If Cuba and Chile can provide free University education then so can we. The money is in the Bahamas and we need to get it back!

To the increasing financial inequality we now add educational inequality and housing inequality. Time to put our feet down!

Engineering degrees have always been practically based.
How else do you think robots have developed?

Colleges of Technology, Polytechnics became universities so would that mean they revert back to more practical-based centres of learning?

Perhaps we do need more apprenticeships resulting in more technically qualified people, not necessarily with degrees.

When there was no university fees far fewer went to university , will this happen again if free ?

No, they shouldn't be paying more. We need a balance but I understood that we do need more Engineering and Science graduates - plus those with non-degree qualifications.

The rules are chaotic.

The Govt are going to have a look at the whole Uni system and one of the ideas is to charge less for Arts degrees.
I can see that Science and Engineering degrees cost more to provide but should those students be paying more than other students? - which subjects are more needed by the Country?

The rules are all different, though, for student loans taken out at various periods since they were introduced.

Some will start paying back at a much lower threshold, some will have their debt wiped out after 30 years, some at age 65 and some never.

Why would 83% never pay back the capital? Does that mean that only 17% of graduates would ever earn enough to pay back their student loans, in which case what was the point of going on to higher education?
Apart from the university experience of course?

Starting to repay at £21,000 seems very low.
They will be repaying before they can get on the housing ladder.

Martin Lewis Money Show on ITV this morning: the most brilliant explanation of Student Loans ever! Just stop worrying about student debt. Apart from not paying a penny until they earn over £21,000 (soon to be £25,000) and the debt being 'wiped' after 30 years, 83% never pay back the capital, (so the interest is not relevant) and those who do are higher earners. You cannot be made bankrupt because of student loan 'debt' and it is NOT taken into account for credit rating. It is a form of PAYE, taken by employer at source. Just choose the right course. That's what you have to worry about!

Since when did fairness become envy?

When I left school in 1971, only about 10% of students went on to university and, in the main, the subjects studied were useful to society. The country could afford to give them free education and grants in the expectation that their later career success would be repaid in taxes.

Then Mr Blair came along and decided it would be a good idea if 50% of school leavers went on to university. It didn't matter if they were clever enough because standards and entry requirements could be lowered to suit. It didn't matter what ridiculous subjects were offered as long as targets were met and it looked like the general masses could obtain a degree of sorts. Not only could the country no longer afford to continue to offer free university education but a barely pass degree in Coronation Street or similar didn't really seem to help anyone get a job!

But that's Labour versus Conservatives for you; the politics of envy. For what it's worth, I was a working class, council house kid who was lucky enough to go to a state grammar school and then off to higher education. I was an only child but my ex was one of 3 boys. He went to uni, they weren't clever enough and had no inclination to go anyway. They went into manual trades and were just as successful as him. University is not everything and definitely not for everyone.

I am not against free university education; I had one myself. A scheme could be introduced ( maybe sponsored by businesses) which offered free tuition in certain meaningful subjects like medicine/engineering etc. which required a contract to be signed that commits the recipient to work and pay taxes in this country for a minimum of 10 years otherwise the full cost of the education would have to be repaid.

The other thing about student loans is that the whole system is such a mess. The terms and conditions over the years have changed more than once and are fairer to some than to others as far as repayment terms go.

It was History of Art. Another of my offspring did the same degree but at Warwick and she had a full timetable; so maybe it is not just the subject but the institution.

It depends on what you do. My granddaughter worked as hard for her degree in education as I did.

I have to say that when I did my degree I had a very full timetable from first thing in the morning till 5 pm. I cannot help wondering about the potential drop in quality caused by such meagre hours of study.

My 3 DDs all had to take out loans for uni. The third arrived there, having organised accommodation, and found that she only had lectures/tutorials on 2 consecutive days each week and it would have been cheaper for her to have B&B one night a week and come back home - about 60 miles away.

I do think that if this is all the time that is needed, then degrees might be telescoped into two years, or even 18 months.

I suspect that companies are no longer prepared to provide the financial backing those courses needed NanaMac Geek. Short term profits over long term funding for training.

On another thread, there was a mention of other qualifications and routes to further education available in the 60's and 70's. Despite getting 3 good ‘A’ levels, I didn't like the few university courses that offered the subject in which I was interested and opted for a HND (Higher National Diploma) course, which was run as a sandwich course. There were three periods, for six months at a time for academic/practical study, interspersed by two six months periods in industry. I had short holidays, no long summer breaks, because that is when I worked, and was paid by my placement employers enough to cover, rent, food and save a little.

My work placements were completely different experiences, one in an agricultural research station, the second with a major food manufacturer (still a leading brand name). When I qualified, I was offered work by the last team I worked with. They said I had impressed them, not only by my abililty to learn and do the work, but also my work ethic. I never looked back and am so grateful for the readily transferable skills I acquired and have built on ever since.

I can't help wondering why such courses died out. It would be possible to double up on student numbers, two cohorts a year going through (one cohort carrying out academic study while the second was on work placement) supported by businesses, good work experience and employers getting the chance to feed back where necessary skills are lacking and being able to take their pick of good candidates.

I received a small grant for this but it was reduced to take into account the periods of work placement and my parents also made a small contribution. I also worked for 3 months before going to college, saving every penny.

NemosMum you have made some very valid points.

Things may well change a lot before my DGC will be old enough to consider university, but in fact we have younger people in the family who have been able to get a job with a firm which sponsors them to take a degree plus take further qualifications, at the same time as working and learning about their chosen role from mentors in the firm.

If more firms were willing to do this, as they used to do years ago, then perhaps not so many young people would end up with horrendous student debt.