Does our education system meet the needs the workplace

For a student to spend three years gaining a second-class degree from a third rate university is the most insane waste of time, they'd be so much better off growing up and learning how to earn a living by going into work-based training. Apprenticeships are, sadly, often used purely as an excuse for the employer to pay a pocket-money wage and though they may be worthwhile for someone learning what could be a very lucrative trade (eg plumbing) I fail to see how nurseries can justify paying around half minimum wage to teach an apprenticeship in childcare!

* varian*
I'm well aware that many students from Comprehensive schools go on to achieve first class academic results and professional careers, in fact I didn't mention Comprehensive education at all!
Where we live, we have a choice of Grammar or Secondary Modern, we are a non Comprehensive area.
Our local Secondary Modern actually states in their syllabus that they aim to get their students to attain C grades at GCSE, and D grades if they stay to do A levels, which very few do.
Using my DS as a case in point, D grades at A level would not have been sufficient for him to get a place on any Law 101 degree in this country. Therefore his chance was only ever going to be through the Grammar school. We could have sent him to a Private school I suppose, but financially that was an impossibility.
Our Grammar school needs extra places, as it is massively oversubscribed, and therefore having to turn down children who really deserve a place. Some of these children would, no doubt, be fine at a good Comprehensive school, but we don't have one, so they are forced to either go to the Sec Mod, or travel out of the Borough entirely to the closest Comprehensives, which also operate an admissions policy, based on home/school proximity as so many children from our area wish to go there.
Our Education Authority here is an absolute disgrace and I wouldn't wish it on anyone!
If Comprehensive schools are run properly, with streaming that works, teachers who are committed, and enough funds, I agree that they offer a wonderful education, but far too many of them fail their more academic pupils, and those who are struggling.
It's horses for courses surely?

For a student to spend three years gaining a second-class degree from a third rate university is the most insane waste of time, they'd be so much better off growing up and learning how to earn a living by going into work-based training

I am in full agreement twiglet77
Many teenagers are going with the flow, because they have so few options.
Work based training, although not a way to get rich quick, is likely to serve a young person much better than going to University, just because.

My son commented that at 22 many of his school friends who went to work at 16 had skills, experience, a track record of employment and money in their pockets. He had a piece of paper, rode a bicycle everywhere and thousands of pounds worth of debt.

Which is the best course of action? He is doing OK now, but started off earning much less at 22 than his friends who had been in work based training since the age of 16. He had debt, they had skills, cars and aspired to a mortgage.

Quote gillybob [I would be interested to learn what a “real” apprentiship would entailGrandad1943and what this “new legislation” would be that we employers would try to resist?] End quote.

Gillybob, perhaps in answering your question it may be helpful to you and other forum members to briefly give my working background. As I have stated on leaving school in 1960 at the age of fifteen with no qualifications I went through a number of occupations. At the age of nineteen, I joined the road haulage industry as a driver (HGV at the age of twenty one) and loved that occupation for many years

In the early 1980s, I was elected as the employee distribution centre safety rep and sent on a what turned out to be a full-time one month long industrial safety course. That course and education completely changed my life. Following that, I became a safety officer for management eventually holding responsibility for safety in eight distribution centres across the country.

During that period with the assistance of that wonderful employer I achieved through Lifetime learning higher IOSH (Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) Accreditation and at the same time improved my English, maths etc. In 2003 the section of that business I was employed in was sold to a multi-national company and my services to them was soon "no longer required".

I then set up my own industrial safety business and received work from my original employer, got lucky in getting other client work and soon became an employer myself. My wife and I ran that company until 2013 when we sold it to four senior long standing employees who had been with us since the start up of the business to retire.

We bought back a 25% share in business again when one of those four had a road traffic accident, which means he will never work again, and in that I am still there.

Therefore Gillybob, all I wish to see for those who are starting out in higher education or are looking to improve their employment position would be for the help, training, lifelong learning and assistance I received throughout a large part of my working life to be available once again to them.

I realize that high level training of employees does not come at low cost as we have on several occasions trained out existing staff to the standards required in the profession these days. However, many positions require science and engineering qualifications on commencement of employment with us and we as a company train them on from there.

Therefore, I feel those opportunities of good quality training could and should become available once again through incentives to employers, change of legislation, a rethink on university degree funding and the comprehensive reintroduction of lifelong learning.

railman I absolutely agree that engineering apprentices are also able to do problem solving, but not everyone can be an engineer. Some young people are academic, and they need to be catered for as well as more practical people.
An academic education should teach people to think, if it is run properly.

Day6 It's very likely that your son will earn more over his lifetime than his friends who started to earn sooner.

But, Day6 I don't agree with streaming by ability at age 14, it is too young, we know more about brain science now, and that IQ and ability is not fixed at such a young age.

juggernaut Nobody could possibly blame you for sending your son to a grammar school in the area you live where the choice was between a grammar school and a secondary modern. The best thing in an area like yours would be comprehensive reorganisation as happened in most areas many years ago, not increasing the number of grammar school places. Areas of England which are ful;ly comprehensive get overall results which are just as good and the children do not suffer the divisive effects of the 11+

I believe students are encouraged to go on to do degrees when they are unnecessary.
My very wise youngest decided not to take up her uni place, nor defer. As she said she knew instinctively she would never use it .... she went on to find a job is now qualified in her chosen career and friends of hers are qualified with degrees but starting at the bottom of the career ladder and are 3/4 years below in the same profession.

I'm out of touch with the current curricula of secondary schools. So can't comment, except to mention a project which I was marginally involved in when working - sponsored by Rank-Hovis and aimed at 13-14 yr old truants from one of the local comprehensives.
There were course options from a range of practical subjects eg photography, hairdressing etc. Taught by professionals.
It certainly got the children back into school, not sure about the long term results.

I'm with you 100% on this, there are so many people with degrees that they have become worthless. As others have said, many people (I'm staying away from accusing just youngsters) don't want to get their hands dirty these days. Many people who go on to university do not even have a basic knowledge of the English language. I know someone with a degree in politics who can't even differentiate between there, their and they're, which really is my particular bugbear.

Pat609
Power to the pedants

Nursing students in Scotland still get bursaries,nurses get (slightly) higher rates of pay than in the rest of the UK and the cap was lifted at the last budget giving them a 3% rise this year .
There has been a campaign to attract midwives and there has been a good uptake on the places .We think the Scottish government is looking to the future of the SNHS,though sadlyw e will lose a lot of talented people because of Brexit.We will lose a lot of workers in a lot of different areas due to Brexit...something we didn't vote for .This will greatly harm our economy in the next 2 decades or more .

Totally agree Joelsnan. DH is not academic and went through the old system of Technical College. He is a gas fitter, has had his own business for 40 years, is extremely well respected in the industry, loves his work and has provided us with a very good lifestyle. If he had come through the current push to send everyone to University he would have been miserable. University is not for everyone and we need to respect non academic skills.
In my role at work, I used to see all the job applications and was shocked that almost everyone had a degree, regardless of the role they were applying for. It felt that a degree wasn’t ‘worth’ as much as it did when I was starting out because everyone had one. I didn’t have a degree, left school at 16 and went to night classes when my children were small to get qualifications. I ended up as a director of a successful company. I don’t think I could do that now as not having a degree would make me fall at the first hurdle
There needs to be a more holistic view of education.

Juggernaut I agree with you that education is a disaster in the areas which still have 11 plus exams although it is popular with middle class parents. Are you in Kent btw, or Bucks?

As a retired teacher who worked in comprehensive schools I absolutely agree with OP about apprenticeships. Many of the disaffected youngsters in lower sets would thrive if given a more practical hands on syllabus instead of trying to force them into academic exams in my view. Then they could go on to apprenticeships instead of being out of work with no qualifications as a young relative of mine is. .

I have to say that a practical course with the Prince's Trust was marvellous and gave him a lot of confidence, but that finished and he still failed to get a job.

The education system is a disaster for the workplace.
Far too many are going to university leading to 40% of graduates not doing graduate work.
The vocational training is also useless, apprentiships are nothing of the sort, instead of committing to a 2 or 3 year training programme for a trade it is just work experience, or training a a Barrista or a Fast Food server.
At 16 to 18 youngsters must decide what they want to do to earn a living and stick to it, but the education system is doing the opposite. Employers are not interested unless the apprentice is committed.

What most employers want is young people at every level up to graduates to be literate and numerate. Too many of them are unable to write in a grammatical and comprehensible way and cannot spell. They are entirely reliant on spell checkers, which cannot give contextual help where two words mean different things with different spellings (their/there).

They also want young people who turn up for work on time, work hard and be prepared to go the extra mile if needed. That and an acceptance that the world does not owe them a living and a willingness to learn is far more important than any qualification

For a student to spend three years gaining a second-class degree from a third rate university is the most insane waste of time

In the past there was value placed in learning for learnings sake.
A batchellors degree was never origionally meant to be a professional qualification. Thats why it used to be said that you were "reading geography" rather than studying to be a geographer at undergrad level.

Now, people have to eat! So learning for the love of learning, rather than as a route to a job, is unfortunately reseved for the privilidged.

But I would disagree that university is pointless unless it leads to a job.

The problem with apprentiships is that most modern apprentiships are a con!

Jobs that were previously entry level jobs at min wage are now filled by apprentiships at less than £4 an hour, who are replaced by another cheap apprentise at the end of the program.

lots if apprentiships are not in trades or skills. They are for jobs that in my day you could walk into and work your way up. "level 2s" are now expected for jobs you used to be able to walk into from the street.

Its exploitative cheap labour, and it eliminates the "work your way up" route.

"real" apprentiships that teach skills and trades are still great. But apprentiship programs have been rolled out to areas where they shouldnt be IMO!

A good degree in any subject shows your capacity to study independently and grasp a subject at a high level. Many employers are very happy to employ people whose first degree is not directly job relevant.

My DD's first degree is in Acting. She never had one professional engagement as an actor because when she graduated she decided instead to go into the technical side of broadcasting; designing and authoring web sites for the BBC. She then retrained as a television subtitler and recently, having nearly completed an OU degree in science and technology, she is moving into technical writing. Her new employer told her what made her ideal for the job was not just her technical degree but her knowledge of writing and presentation that came from her professional life to date. Her first degree in acting has not been of direct use to her in any of her areas of work, but to begin with it was the fact that she was a graduate that got her a job and since then it has been the fact that she is a graduate and her track record that has enabled her to develop her career.

We need a literate population with a diversity of skills.

When need our thinkers and academics, our technicians and innovators, plus our hands-on workers.

We need all these and more and an education system which provides the means for them to thrive.

Exactly OldMeg - not rocket science is it.

It's no wonder we have a shortage of nurses and social workers in all disciplines. Why would anyone want to find themselves in huge student debt in order to qualify in a profession where you never earn a huge amount and end up sitting in front of a lap top filling in forms. The teaching/social work/nursing assistants are paid less, have less stress and don't have huge student debts.

Plus it’s not just about filling gaps in the workplace. Children should have the opportunity to explore creative subjects such as music, dance, art, drama, sport as those who don’t shine in academic displines may have the chance to shine in other areas. Of course these are the areas that are being sacrificed on the altar of a narrow academic curriculum.

Is it the academics themselves who have narrowed the curriculum and created content far too complicated and barely relevant to its need. I think of English where spelling and grammar appears to have been sacrificed for technical composition?

I think it was Michael Gove who insisted on the emphasis on obscure grammar.