GD terrified of 11+

Spot on Mamie.

I have always had a very poor memory and exams were a nightmare. Nevertheless I got A Levels and a degree, and a GCSE in Drama (for which I wasn't allowed any prompting on stage). Thankfully the degree course had an element of assignments as well as final examinations.

In my final years as Head of IT in a largish comprehensive school I would have liked a better memory but I had some tricks to keep it all OK.

And of course nowadays the internet supplies knowledge, facts, opinions etc. So what we need is skills for mining data and evaluating and using it. I waver between thinking the current exam strategy is deliberately dumbing down students or the powers that be simply don't understand this!

Correction: Actually looks closer to 30 GCSE exams from mid May to Mid June.

Jalima No you can't avoid exams and they never worried me very much right through to post-graduate. However the new GCSEs are crazy. GD1 did one a year early, but will still have about 20 exams for the rest next May and June. She has a very good memory and has learnt to manage performance stress as a dancer, but there are lots of stories coming out of schools of children buckling under pressure.
It is very hard for less able pupils as it is all about memory and coursework has gone. If people have GDs doing GCSEs this year it may help to have a look at the content.
I know people will jump in and say "we never had coursework", but having gone through a lengthy career in a demanding profession I can honestly say that the ability to plan, write, research and present is more useful than learning it all parrot fashion.

Here is a link to a Guardian article on Finnish education:

www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jul/01/education-michael-gove-finland-gcse

There has also been fairly recent research in the UK:
www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0917/060917-Setting-BERA
If I read this correctly then mixed ability classes strongly hinder lower ability pupils while moderately helping those of higher ability. The conclusions seems to be that the latter could have been helped adequately by other strategies and the former really need to be in mixed ability classes.

I don't think kids stress unduly over it normally- are her parents pressuring her? Is it a reaction to things at home? Given that most kids will fail this exam anyway, with only a handful getting through, it's not as if all her friends are going to succeed and she could be the only 'failure'. Exams ARE a fact of life, and she can't opt out of GCSEs etc; I think you need to try to get her to see it in context; that she only has to do her best; that few pass. I was disappointed when my eldest ended up at secondary modern, but he did OK, got to uni and has a top job (earns far more than I ever did- and I passed!) so it's no big deal!

there are no grammar schools in Scotland ,you either go to a state comprehensive or a private school .Surely they should be improving the education in ALL schools instead of this system which reeks of privilege.Especially given the remark above about seeing a Grammar school on a cv making a difference.WHY aren't all children treated equally in the state sector ?

There is no avoiding exams Mamie, is there.

There are exams throughout school life, culminating in A levels or perhaps B tech etc.

Employers, universities, judge students by their results along with other criteria.
It is something we do have to get used to. However, I am not sure that the 11+ is a necessary exam.

Do you have a link to prove that grannypauline?

Surely one advantage of comprehensive schools is that children can be put in sets according to their ability in different subjects?

A child who has a mathematical bent will surely be held back if put in the same class as one who really struggles with maths.

Please could you let us know how mixed ability classes work please.

How sad that children are being pressured to take exams and tests!

In Finland (a country which consistently scores much higher on international scales than the UK or US) testing of children under the age of 16 is illegal. Pupils are taught in mixed ability classes and there is abundant support for those who need it.

Here exams serve 2 purposes. One is to sift out those who are supposedly not going to do so well academically - though we all know you can't really predict this at 11.

The other is - as someone alluded to - is to test the teachers so that we can have payment by results.

Finns would regard both as impractical if not immoral!

I passed the 11+ 50 years ago, went to the 'grammar' school, came bottom of the class most of the time and simply gave up. I didn't get to university because by that time I though I was stupid. 50 years on I realise I am a perfectly intelligent person with twice as much common sense as my university educated husband. I reckon if I had gone to the other school I would have been near the top of the class and my self esteem would not, even now be non existent.

There is no selection at 11 yrs in Scotland. All the children move together to the same comprehensive school for the area. Some selection based on ability happens later but all pupils are prepared for exams at 16 and 17.

There is no avoiding exams in Year 6. The SATs are also extremely stressful for the children. The children in my GDs town have 11+ in September of Year 6 and then SATs for all in May.
I agree that the new 1-9 GCSEs are hugely demanding. Some of the content seems more like A level to me.

Where I live in Berkshire we are on the border with Buckinghamshire, and both mine attended a Bucks grammar, which was right for them. Many of my friends choose not to put their offspring through the test, and send theirs to a nearby town where there are comprehensives, as the local non-selective has a poor reputation. Doing well at a comprehensive is definitely preferable to struggling at a grammar, but if the area doesn't have comprehensives nearby, a lot will depend on the standard of the local non-selective. The non-selective I work in gets results as good as many comprehensives, despite some of the brightest pupils being 'creamed off' to the grammars.
Unfortunately there is no avoiding exams for ever. Our education system is so focused on GCSEs these days that all kids face huge pressures in secondary school. I work as a learning support assistant in a good non-selective but some of our pupils will never pass a GCSE at the equivalent of A-C despite all the support we give them, yet they still have to sit them. I personally think that is extremely destructive of their confidence as they simply learn to fail! My school do offer separate invigilation for some students who find being in the main hall for exams particularly stressful, but some schools may not be able to do that due to staffing or room availability. When the time comes it may be worth discussing that with whatever secondary school she attends. Whether or not she needs to take this exam at this stage will depend on many factors, particularly what the school options are in the area and also, very importantly, where her friends will go, as that may be particularly important to her. I think the most important thing you can say to her is that whether she passes or not, as long as she has tried her best that is all that matters, and you will be proud of her and love her just as much whatever happens.

I think unless people are familiar with the current version of the 11+ it is pretty meaningless to discuss it in terms of the past.
Many of the children at my GD's primary school had private tutors from as early as Year 2; we know of several children who scraped in to the grammar and were then miserable in the bottom set. Anecdotally we know that the cost of uniforms and school trips is high. The secondary schools in the town are very good and regularly get children into Oxbridge and some of the Progress 8 data is better than the grammar schools.
The data at national level also shows that very few children from poorer families get into grammar schools, with a tiny percentage eligible for free school meals.
It really isn't the same as it used to be.

The 11+ is just a set of 3 IQ tests - it's obvious by the age of 5 who will pass it. You can get books of practice tests but being 'trained' to pass them is a waste of time as you would never keep up in grammar school.
I don't think you can be trained to pass them but certainly taking a few practice papers would give a pupil an idea of what will be expected of them.

The other thing about the 11+ - and this has been the case for very many years, even when I was a child, is the there is no 'pass rate' as such. The level is determined by the number of places available at the Grammar or High School. Where I grew up there were more places for boys at the Grammar School than there were for girls at the High School, so that the 'pass rate', as some call it, was set at a higher level for the girls.

Well said*Beau*totally agree with your post.

I agree with nannarose. Life does not have to be competitive. I have never been so and do not regret it. Even when a competitive situation arose such as with school sports, I couldn't care less what position I came. I don't think that children should be put under too much stress.

Marie I am pleased that both your granddaughters are doing well at the local Academy but am amazed that your younger grand daughter was allowed to turn down a place on the grounds that the Grammar School was"stuffy and snobbish"
How would a child of that age know that?
The parents of a clever friend of mine did not allow her to sit for the 11+ exam because the school was full of "Grammar School snobs" but in those days most pupils were unable to take GCE exams at Secondary Modern Schools .
I wonder if she regrets not being able to try to get a place at the Grammar School.

I think the point is that whatever you call a school, it is not a 'comprehensive' in principle if there is a grammar school operating alongside.
I lived for awhile in a county that bordered one that had the 11+. A number of families moved, so that their children could take the 11+. Strangely, some of them then applied for their children to be educated back in their original town as they had come to believe so strongly in a true comprehensive system. I wonder what happened to change their minds?!

OP, I hope that in your home, the little girl can find a haven and some respite. Personally, I don't think that life does have to be competitive, and we can achieve a lot through co-operation and valuing what we all have to offer. That is not a wishy-washy pie-in-the-sky attitude either, it's one our family believes in deeply and has worked towards all of our lives.
I don't wish to take issue with anyone who believes differently - we all want the best for our families and have our own ways of achieving this.

I think that with family support etc the child should be encouraged to sit the exam. I understand the family split has come at a bad time but the adults should put their own feelings aside and help the child.
I don't agree that children should opt out of exams etc, life is competitive and we can't ignore things which don't suit us if we want to be self sufficient and independent.

We don't have any comprehensive schools in Buckinghamshire - you can decide not to take the 11+ and apply for comprehensive in Hertfordshire, a few do that. I am a huge believer in grammar schools - I went to one but ended up as a single mum at 18 by making some wrong choices after my parents divorced. My daughter passed her 12+ as it was then and is now a corporate lawyer and was a partner before she had DGS and went in-house. That's social mobility in action imo. The 11+ is just a set of 3 IQ tests - it's obvious by the age of 5 who will pass it. You can get books of practice tests but being 'trained' to pass them is a waste of time as you would never keep up in grammar school. We were not even told that particular test was the 11+ in my day, I have no idea why they make such a fuss over it nowadays.

OP my family live in an 11+ area where the other schools are secondary moderns. GD1 at the end of primary education, was a sensitive and nervous child who did not take the 11+from choice. She is at the local academy seconday school where she has done brilliantly, is now at the top of the top set and predicted very high GCSE grades. GD2 is a very bright child who passed the 11+ with a high mark, but turned down a grammar school place (she thought it was stuffy and snobbish) to go to the academy with her sister. Both girls benefit from the school's able and talented programme, the ethos of the school and the dedicated staff. We are all delighted with the progress they have made.
To get in to the grammar schools in the town the majority of pupils have years of coaching and many go to independent primary schools to make sure they pass.
It really isn't like it was 50 years ago.

Hi Pollyperkins. I live in Kent and although most towns have grammar schools we certainly have comprehensive. My son went to one. My daughter did go to grammer. But l assure you we have comprehensive!!!

We did loads of mock papers before the 11+, starting at age 9 because some of us took the 11+ at 9. In those days they did them at school but now I think you can go to a centre to do 'practice papers'.

The young lady in question has very good school reports.
If she is very bright may she not regret it later if she does not take the exam?
I hated taking exams when I went to Grammar School .
I doubt many pupils enjoy taking them.
We just had to get on with it.