GD terrified of 11+

It varies, but it usually goes something vaguely like this:
1. Children in care
2. Siblings in catchment who have regular/weekly church involvement, go to church primary and are christened
3. As (2) but without siblings in the school
4. Siblings in catchment who are christened
5. As (4) without siblings
6. In catchment not christened with siblings
7. As above without siblings
8. Out of catchment christened with siblings
......and so on..

(It varies & many secondaries dont have the sibling categories)

So where our RC has a huge amount of applications they are filling up at Cat2, where the COE is over subscribed but less so than the RC it is filling up around Cat 4/5

It is not because they are stricter than RC, Their criterias are pretty much the same, they just cut off numbers wise lower down the list

It depends on how over subscribed they are Jamilall. Most COE schools DO have priority criteria for church going but where the cut off occurs on admissions depends on how many apply per place.

At my local coe secondary, the cut of has been church involvement for last few years, but hasnt gone as high up the criteria for cut off as the RC one, which is currently cutting off at weekly attendance & a RC primary. If the RC applications drop then the cut off will move down the criteria categories.

However I believe that the archbishop of Canterbury is opposed to church going attendance as an attendance criteria as he feels is is against the spirit in which the COE provides community schools, and SOME COE schools are following suit

Yes exactly. And if you don't do religion....
I do think though that the grammars take quite a lot who would have otherwise gone independent, which is why the local secondaries have students who go to Oxbridge and RG universities.

I have never found that C of E primary schools are at all strict about entry, unlike RC schools.

Neither do any, as far as I know, push religion on to the children any more than any other state schools.

That reminds me, I left one school off my local schools list. Its a state school but I havent ever been able to consider it due to its "Outstanding" status. You can only get in if you buy into the immediate area, and rents and house prices within its catchment are astronomical.

Thats why parents cant "just" send their kid to the "local comp" (although I think its an academy now too)

Agree that in wealthier areas the local "outstanding" schools don't necessarily deserve the title due to the amount of money spend outside of school on tutoring for results that the schools then take credit for.

In such areas the "good" state schools are selective by house prices. With the wealthier parents (who will tutor) being able to move/buy within catchment.

More hoops. If you cant buy on the doorstep of the catchment selective state school you're left with religous hoops or exam hoops...

Rock and a hard place really..

What we need is non religious non specialised non selective schools....

Comps really.

The choice for many isnt whether or not to jump through hoops, its WHICH hoops to jump through: religous, other selectives, limiting subject bands or 11+

PS I do know how schools have changed; the latter half of my career in teaching was in school improvement. ?

All I can say is that in my GDs primary there were lots of children having 11+ tutoring from Year 2. There were even more from Year 3, both private and group lessons. We also know lots who went to independent school where they specialise in 11+ entry. It is a wealthy town though.

A lot of kids do need extra help in year 2 because they "skipped" the curriculum up a year, i.e. what used to be taught in yr 3 is now taught in yr 2, what was previously yr 4 work is now expected in yr 3. This comes from the government not parents or teachers. Kids in yr 2 are being tutored just to keep their head above water.

I have family members who tutor for 11+ and they mostly tutor yr5s.

Yr 2 tutoring is mostly just helo keeping up with the recently increased pace.

I have used free online subject resources to help my kids with their school work. A lot of the free stuff is US based. With the youngest (still in primary) I now have to use the resources from about 2 US grades ahead, not the corresponding grade for same age group, just to access the topics mine are doing in school.

I think people don't appreciate how much schools have changed in recent years at the hands of the government.

Tutors are no longer reserved for the pushy who want their kids to excel beyond their peers, its now necessary for many kids just to keep up with the accelerated syllabus just so that they don't end up completely dejected.

Schools are running homework help lessons FOR PARENTS because kids homework is so much harder than it used to be and well educated parents are struggling to help their kids at home.

Dont be so quick to think that the source of the pressure on kids these days is "pushy parents"

There have always been pushy parents. There aren't more of them now than there used to be. The increased use of tutors and 11+ prep has other sources/causes.

Notanan 11+ coaching from Year 2 feels fairly pushy to me. ?
The outstanding academy our girls attend has no particular specialism, but my GD1 says a lot of her friends come from families who don't believe in selective or religious schools!

I hate the whole "speciality" academy thing.

If you are lucky enough that it matches your child's aptitudes/interests it can work out okay but I've seen it go the other way: kids shoe-horned into subject streams that don't suit them, then getting disheartened because they don't enjoy or succeed at them (understandably)

In that way, the selective schools (church & grammar) have become the "comprehensive" schools in so much as the children can chose subjects that suit them rather than the school's speciality status, and all subject streams/choices are more equally valued

The vast majority of secondary schools in Norfolk are Academies. One near us has a wonderful history of music and still a very good reputation for it, but opted to apply for sports speciality status. Rumour has it it was because sports gets more money! (I do not know the truth of this.)

This was on the C of E website.
Church schools in numbers

Approximately 1 million children attend Church of England schools.
About 15 million people alive today went to a Church of England school.
"A quarter of primary schools and over 200 secondary schools are Church of England.
With 250 sponsored and over 650 converter academies, the Church is the biggest sponsor of academies in England.
Over 500 independent schools declare themselves to be Church of England."
In my daughter's town there are grammars, church schools with incredibly strict rules for entry and the Academy our girls attend which has about six children for every place.

notanan - I now feel even more fed up, cross, irritated and all round angry about the way successive governments have interfered, not left education to the educators and subjected us to their non expert ideas of how things should be.
I'm in the north west. Our (deprived) town has several good or outstanding comprehensives. We were the first town to have a comprehensive school way back when Grammar Schools still existed here. One of mine went to the early comp, it's still going strong with outstanding exam results. Same for the C of E high school (yes, church attendance needed for entry, unless 6 th form, when it's exam passes). My younger children went there and had a happy, successful time. That is becoming an Academy, sadly. One of the other comprehensives has become a Church high school and an academy. Previously it was run by the council, very very well. It served a mixed area of huge post war social housing and 60s onwards private housing. It did wonderful work with 'difficult' children from tough backgrounds and achieved excellent exam results.
Things are changing, and not for the better. I have young grandchildren and fear for their future. Our local primary schools are still good/outstanding but what will happen in high schools with the death of LA in high schools I dread to think.

For church secondary admissions sometimes you have to pick your kids secondary school when they are 3/4 so that you get them into a church primary so that they'll get into the church secondary. I know parents who have kids unhappy in church primaries but won't move them because that would then rule out the church secondary.

At least with grammar you don't really have to decide if its for them until they're 9ish. And you can send them to whichever primary suits them best as there is no "feeder" system.

So in that way, grammar is the LESS "pushy parent" route

Where do church schools fit into that Mamie?

I know some of the more obscure religious schools are free schools (such as steiner etc) but RC and COE which are either exam/grade selective or church going selective or both? Most if them are not freeschools, but they take up a big chunk of secondary school places. Are they under academies or LA?

(I'm pretty sure our local RC and COE schools arent academies so must be under LA. They are not comps and they have sometimes more hoops to jump for admission than grammar does)

According to Full Fact Secondary Schools in England 2017:
62% Academies, 31% LA, 7% Free.
163 grammars.
77% of primary schools are still LA.

As someone (was it Jalima) said earlier, the pass rate depends on the number of places
Yes, it was me; I remember that our local grammar school for boys was larger than the high school for girls - so girls had to achieve a higher 'pass rate' than boys.

there are few resources for languages and other arts though.
I'm not sure how many language teachers we are producing now; a young relative was offered several jobs as there appears to be a shortage.

Do people really think that traditional comprehensive schools still exist?
Well, they do in Wales.

Do people really think that traditional comprehensive schools still exist?

I can't name one in any of our surrounding towns.

Most comps became academies and free schools have been used to provide school places that should have been provided by comps, but weren't, the job was outsourced and the money given to a whole spectrum of groups who run them as they please.

Some academies are great but many are themed. Next town over's local girls secondary academy is deeply sexist, offering mostly "girl" subjects like dance and drama and childcare/health and social care.

Our local academy for secondary is a science academy, great if your kid is into science, there are few resources for languages and other arts though.

These academies are okay if the theme matches your childs interests, otherwise youre going to be putting a square peg in a round hole.

IAM64 I'm amazed that people still think that there are an abundance of comprehensive school places available all over the place!

There is no "comprehensive" school near me.

There is a science academy

Church schools (one exam selective, all require church involvement)

Grammar

Private

Another that requires a bus pass that costs HUNDREDS of pounds to get to.

No comp

I'm amazed every time this subject comes up and there are a few posts from people who seem to believe the only way to get a 'good' education is to go to the Grammar School. The 11plus is socially divisive, extremely destructive for bright young people who don't pass. To say that by age 5, it's possible to identify who will pass is nonsense. As someone (was it Jalima) said earlier, the pass rate depends on the number of places. Traditionally, there were more places for boys than girls. A pass in one town would be a fail 4 miles down the road. disgusting way to treat children.
The move to bring back secondary moderns, as this government seem set on doing, despite not having a mandate so to do, will cause even further damage to our education system.
I agree that exams like GCSE aren't for everyone and deplore the lack of what used to be called technical education. We don't need to banish comprehensive education in order to make it possible for some children to study technical/practical subjects rather than GCSE.

The non grammars in some areas are also selective. Our local RC secondary is.

In other areas alternatives to grammar are church schools who non church goers won't get into.

There isn't a comp on every corner.

Its not actually that optional in some areas.

Where I live, primary school children have to take three lots of tests per year! I don’t understand how parents have decided to comply with this. Mind you, the teachers do say to them, ‘oh it’s no pressure it’s just for the government’.