eduating youngsters

On school holidays jackfowler ?
Never mind, the weather is due to improve.

Totally agree Mahon . We had a pre school nursery at our primary school. Children , unless disabled in some way, were not accepted unless toilet trained. May did come with dummies which was discouraged. We had often to teach basic manners. Please, thank you etc. Table manners also. Many a 5 yr ols
D stil ate with their fingers and had no idea how to use a knife and fork. I have no idea why they were not taught at home, but many a young mother brought her children to school in her pjs and dressing gown

QQ your gift for sweeping generalisations is truly astonishing!

Both my granddaughters could, and wanted to, dress and undress themselves before they were even 2, as well as feed themselves suitably. I do think some parents think they are doing their child some sort of favour by doing everything for them, instead of letting them be as independent as possible, even if it takes a bit longer.

I expect it has a lot to do with a lot of mothers with young children working full time and who need things done by a certain time. Usually, the general care is left mostly up to them even though they may work the same hours as the father, that's if there is one around on a full time basis.

Youngsters will be taught academic (fields for later in life) and social knowledge (rules, manners, communication) during the years. Without guardians or teachers we teenagers and children may make mistakes since habits may not have been formed yet.

I think far too much is expected from teachers these days.
On top of all the problems written above, they're then expected to show that each child has reached some hypothetical targets appropriate for their age. eg in year 2 of primary school.

Those who always make the right choices see the rewards of that all the time quiz

quizqueen if you withdraw the support what do you suppose will happen? Do you imagine anything will change? How exactly will that happen? You write as if people are deliberately deciding to be problems in order to access support or money, if there are any like that they are very few. Most are stuck and need help. Only good support will enable those children to progress and achieve.

As long as poor parenting continues to be rewarded with extra financial support from the state and extra support in school and from outside agencies etc. why should they bother to change! It's about time those who always make the right choices saw some rewards, in my opinion.

I too still teach & DD is a teacher. Only occasionally are ch not toulet trained at all. Last yr DD had a phantom pooper who left ' gifts' ! But that is an excaption rather than the norm. A bigger issue is an increase in ch. unable to converse or respond to request or questions. Most do well but there are more ch. who do not.

I’ve been a teacher for more years than I care to remember (and still do supply teaching) and I have seen the number of children going into the reception class in pull-ups increase year on year. I have taken children of 9 on residential trips and been appalled at their lack of table manners (unable to use a knife and fork properly, speaking with their mouth full) and don’t get me started on the lack of basic good manners - please and thank you. I stopped giving gifts to my class at Christmas because the children never said thank you. Now I care for my 1 year old DGS and am already sharing the responsibility for ensuring that he asks for something with a please and accepts with a thank you. It does start at home and it’s not rocket science!

Of course parents are a child's first teacher: of language, behaviour, attitude and values.

Nurseries and schools have a role in ensuring good of language, behaviour, attitude and values . Usually that is just reinforcing what has already been instilled by the majority of good enough parents.

Occasionally there are parents who are overwhelmed by physical or mental illness, caring for others, unemployment and/or poor housing, parents who have poor levels of cognitive / educational development and of course there are just bad parents, too concerned with their own interests to worry about how their child is developing. These are not that common though!

Well that is my experience anyway!

I doubt very much Social Services wade in and remove children without good reason.

All great ideas, but laces are very hard at 4 . 6/7 is a more suitable age as they take a lot of dexterity. There comes a time when the beloved Velcro has the be abandoned another can do their laces.

Teaching manners is an on going process, but certainly saying please and thank you should have been learned before school age.

IMO all children should be able to use a toilet properly before they go to school (except of course children with a specific disability that affects them in this area).

And all teachers will appreciate it if children can sit quietly on a chair when asked to do so, tie their own shoe-laces, hang their coats up on a cloakroom peg and blow their noses before they start school!

None of these things should be left to whoever takes Primary 1 to teach.

Is that yet another "fact" that you just "know" EV or have you any real evidence? And anyway if SS did go round to see someone with a child in nappies what would you expect them to do? Remove the child? Oh no you don't approve of that. Spend a week training the child and parents? Then you'd be complaining that social workers weren't dealing with children at risk!

Oh yes trisher----I forgot, SS are too busy removing children who aren't at risk !! Fact !

Children should also be taught by parents to respect others. In an upmarket cafe the other day, mother with two Young’s girls I school uniform and they were behaviouring really badly, running around the tables shouting and yelling. We moved away but we’re still affected by their behaviour as were two other couples. I ended up going up to the mother and asking her if she would mind keeping her children under control so the didn’t annoy others. I was told they are only little what can you expect. I won’t go into what my rep,y was. Anyway parents should be teaching their children the basics at home so teachers can get on with instilling knowledge. Of course there will be cases where the parents need help and this should be available.

Where on earth do you thin the staff are going to come from to manage that EllanVanin? Haven't you heard of austerity and how this government has cut services? There aren't enough social workers to look after kids who are actually at real risk of harm, never mind ones in nappies.

I think social services should go to the homes of those whose children are still wearing nappies to see why and what's going on.

I taught for 40 years and was a senior leader for many years. Children in the past were always toilet trained on entry to school (unless they had special needs, which was a special case and catered for). The last 3 years before I retired we had more and more children coming into, first nursery, and then Reception Class, who were still in nappies. The last year we had 5 out of 30 who were not toilet trained at all. How do parents think that a Reception Class teacher with 30 children in her class and a teaching assistant have time to potty train children? The odd accident is understandable and has always happened, but schools have neither the facilities nor the manpower to toilet train and clean up children with no understanding. My heart used to sink when I saw the bulge of a nappy under a 4 year old's clothes.

Ideally, we just have to continue the good manners, table manners and toilet training that home has started. Often nowadays we are doing the initial training. The good news is that a class full of children is a great motivator. Praise one child for saying thank you (sometimes have to wait a while?) and the remainder of the class will copy. Hand out stickers or points to those who say please and thank you and they may even remember next time.
The only toilet training issues I’ve dealt with (apart from colostomies, which seem to be on the increase even in 4 year olds) seemed to be overcome after a couple of weeks in a class where all children are encouraged to go at certain times and rewarded for being dry AND washing hands.
Knives and forks are something else though. You are working with children who cut up with a knife then eat with their fork, use both knife and fork in an acceptable manner (whether palm held or pencil style), those who stab a piece of food and eat it lolly style and those who use only fingers. It’s fun to practise in class, using a knife and fork to cut up plasicine worms etc. Children take turns to cut or film their partner on the iPads and awards are given for good practice and transfer of skills to real food. Tie it in with a lesson on halves or partitioning and it’s suddenly cross-curricular.

if a teacher has to take a child to the toilet (change nappies etc) they are NOT allowed to do it alone (child protection issues) - so as they cannot leave a class unattended another person has to be found to help - this at a time when funds are virtually non-existent so little extra helpers around - I think there needs to be a contract between parents and the school - parents having to assume responsibility for toilet training for one thing!

eazybee I was teaching in the 70s as well, but neither did I encounter alcoholic mothers, parents who were drug addicts or dealers (and actually the dealers' kids were better cared for) or agressive mothers. There was a school clinic where many of the children went to have small wounds treated and be checked by the school nurse, they were fed a hot meal every day even during the holidays and drank milk. As for toilet training one of the ways many of them were trained was because they were playing out in the street with older children as soon as they could walk (sometimes with any pants).
Society changes and the problems change.

Trisher, I think we have to be very careful not to solely blame the social divide, I have seen families who were deemed ‘deprived’ but the children clean , tidy , and well mannered, and also a family where mum and dad drove very ex cars, wore designer clothes, had very well paid jobs, but their children could do none of the above basic tasks and had obviously never been read to.