Foreign languages in UK schools - really poor offer and take up - WHY?

French and some German taught in my GC's schols in teh West of Scotland from primary 2 .I was taught French from P5 in the 60's.In those days it was televised lessons and the TV would be wheeled in to the classroom and the teacher had notes to match each lesson . French was standard in high school with latin ,german and Italian available from 4th year Sadly I'm rubbish at languages ,but I can read a menu in 4 or 5 ..bad teaching didn't help my inability to take in the lessons

Pantglas I would never say that Welsh should not be taught in Welsh schools but it should be a option and not compulsory up to Y11.

It is a first language in some areas but the majority of people speak English as a first language and less than 20% speak any Welsh at all. This, of course, will increase over the years because of the compulsory teaching in every state school.

What use it will be in the wider world is debatable. The time could be more usefully spent learning a language such as German, Spanish or Mandarin.
It is a vanity project of the Welsh Assembly and the money coild be used better elsewhere.

When I retired five years ago. French was compulsory at all stages in my Scottish primary school. I was the MFL teacher and our LA had a prescriptive curriculum for modern languages.

P7 children were to taught to conjugate verbs, such as Avoir and Être After spending a week at the University of Lyons, sponsored by the British Council, I totally revised my methodology. It was a revelation, when I realised I had become stuck in my ways and my teaching was too formal (and probably boring).
As well as formal learning, I introduced games, learning through song,, crafting and used You Tube to stimulate the pupils. The use of technology also enhanced their experience.

We had an annual whole school French Day, everyone dressed with ( Parents were so inventive) a French theme, which started as a small venture, but as word spread, we had to issue tickets to parents as we couldn't accommodate all those who wished to come to the whole school French concert. Even the wee ones performed.
Every class performed a song in French. My pièce de résistance was , Abba's Waterloo in French, complete with dancing. I think I had as much fun as the pupils. There was also a House French quiz based on grammar, vocab and knowledge about France.with tasting sessions of French food.
The pupils and staff loved this approach.

I also taught basic Italian to P6 and P7. In other schools in the Authority, the third language was either German or Mandarin.

We also had a MFL assistant and who was shared among four other schools, meaning we had her/ him for a day a week. This was an invaluable resource.

However, it was becoming more and more difficult to find primary teachers who could deliver French, (or wanted to) as they hadn't studied languages at school or during teacher training and were afraid of getting it wrong. Finding people to deliver Italian was nigh impossible. That was the reason I was delivering to the whole school.

Exactly, GagaJo.

Sorry to say this, but the language (other than Welsh and English) results in Wales are poor.

Growstuff, I agree about poor language teaching.

My previous school (a truly horrific academy) offered ONE language. The language teacher was given other subject lessons to fill up her timetable. Her language lessons (as all lessons are in these academies) were centrally planned and she had no input into their content or style. She was distressed by the awful quality but her hands were tied.

And again, Maddyone, the school I am in NOW made an MFL teacher redundant because they reduced the language options.

Maddyone, I don't dispute that. But the reason schools offer limited option choices is because they're chasing the holy grail of Maths/English/Science.

I'm in my 3rd academy job where this is the case.

So I'm sorry, but this IS a fact linked to Conservative education policy.

You’re right Maddyone so many Welsh infants start school with very little English (potty training is a different and separate issue not confined to mother tongue).

However, the reality is that English is everywhere ie family, neighbours, shops, tv/radio and it’s almost guaranteed that children will be bombarded with enough English that they will be almost fluent within a couple of years of starting school.

On that basis, they can be bilingual at 7/8 and that is the time to introduce a third language almost before they realise it’s a chore!

Good point Maddyone I agree. From much older experience too.
And G-d help those babies whose parents rarely speak to them because they're too involved with the rubbish on their so called 'smart'phones.

As for those of you who advocate teaching modern languages in the infant school, are you not aware that many children are starting school now who are neither potty trained nor in any way competent in the English language. These children need to learn to speak English first.

Yet again growstuff is absolutely spot on.
Maw has made many good points too.
There will be even fewer students taking foreign languages in the future because fewer students read MFLs at university. There is already a shortage of properly qualified modern language teachers, the shortage will be more acute in the future.

I think quiz Queen you should differentiate between British and English on laziness with languages as in Wales lots of us speak Welsh first and then learn English at primary school before going on to attempt other languages.

As someone said earlier on this thread the more languages you speak the more you are able to speak as your brain is trained to remember several words for each object etc. When you absorb that as an infant it doesn’t faze you as extra languages are introduced later on.

It’s not an argument Jura but you cannot make sweeping generalisations and not expect them to be challenged when they are in direct opposition to the experience of others.
You say 2010 was a long time ago
What does that make 2009!
Your other claims about the 70’s/80’s/90’s etc were clearly out but you seem incapable of ever admitting you might be wrong.
Or indeed, not having the final word.

jura The county councils don't have any advisory or support staff for anything.

The main reasons take up for languages is falling are nothing to do with primary languages, digital language labs or school trips.

A good teacher doesn't need technology to teach languages well.

What is needed are:

1 Motivated, well-behaved pupils. Pupils in indies and grammar schools are likely to have parents who see languages as an important cultural part of an all-round education, like music. Independent schools can expel disruptive pupils, which state comprehensives can't. The current state of affairs doesn't help.

2 Smallish classes are helpful because there are more opportunities for pupils to speak during lessons, which can be truly interactive.

3 Adequate curriculum time. Many schools are so paranoid about their GCSE grades in the core subjects of Maths, English and Science that languages are fitted into gaps. It's particularly difficult to fit in two languages.

4 Recognition that languages don't always fit into whatever the latest fad is, however keen the headteacher is. Questioning techniques is a particular example.

5 Good training. Too often it's assumed that teachers can teach a language just because they can speak it. The other extreme is that some headteachers seem to think that all language teachers can teach all languages. Well, they're all foreign, aren't they?

6 A recognition that public exam grading is harsh. On average, pupils achieve half a grade lower in languages than they do in other subjects. That's not because the teaching is bad. The DfE and Ofqual justify language grading by saying that it's comparable with grading in other European countries, but young people in other countries are often surrounded by English in the media. Schools concerned about league tables actively discourage less able pupils from doing GCSE in languages.

7 Good teachers. Goodness knows what will happen after Brexit, because approximately one third of language teachers are EU nationals.

8 Another review of the content of public exams. GCSE and particularly A level are boring and inappropriate.

I'm sure I could go on ...

MawB, I totally agree my comments are based on my own experience and my own areas, and my own colleagues. I left in 2009 - but meet up with colleagues everytime we go and with many via internet.

There are many other articles on the subject- just picked that one. You must know how Risk Assessments are these days, and the rules about CRB checking, etc. That can't be done with all family members where kids used to stay. I remember some really hairy situations in rural Normandy, with our school exchange, every year. Same with our daughters' exchanges with their own schools.

Shame you seem to want to turn this as an argument of sort. Not required.

Leicestershire had a whole dpt and several staff (whom I all knew well) to help with exchanges- all gone now.

Did you mean ‘O’ levels?

How old are you , quizqueen? Rude question, I know, but GCSEs weren't introduced until 1988.

I agree the present PGL type trips to France are of very little value for learning the language. They are more activity and adventure based trips where an organised programme keeps the kids physically occupied during the daytime. When we did our own trips abroad we would set language tasks in the market and post office, we would visit a French school for a day and we would have lessons and diary work in the evening. It was total immersion in the language and culture. They don't even appreciate the scenery from the train or coach window these days because they're too busy on their iPads!

MFL are very much alive in my granddaughter’s state school, but it is selective. Having done French for three years, and some Spanish and German for two, she has opted to continue with just French in Year 10, though she would be capable of doing well in all three. There are so many subjects she wants to take!

I do recall, many years ago now, teaching in some tough comprehensive schools in rough areas, many pupils had no interested in French, couldn’t see the point. They were unlikely to visit London, let alone France and did not see how they would ever use French. It was a real struggle to motivate them when languages were compulsory, so I for one was relieved when the law changed.

My apologies -Deputy Head

The learning of a foreign language should be compulsory from year 1 in the infants school in the UK. My granddaughter started French in year 3 but had done a bit before in an after school club. I lived in Belgium for a year and most people there could get by in 5 or 6 languages. The British have always been lazy where languages are concerned, expecting the rest of the world to speak English. I took GCSEs in French, German, Latin and Ancient Greek and Latin at A level, but the emphasis then in the 1960s was on written rather than oral. It's much better now that conversational French is taught as a priority.

Your opinion Jura but you are not the only person to have experience in this field.
Growstuff seems to think otherwise too.
I too retain close links with my old school and colleagues and think that your sweeping assertion even in the 70’s/80’s/90’s only schools with a large 6th form employed assistant(e)(s) fails to stand up to scrutiny.
Exactly when did you return to Switzerland I wonder?
Your comments about Exchange visits likewise - not necessarily the case.
And finally, when did I ever take the Mail on Sunday as gospel or even a recognised authority over personal experience ?
Interesting that you are quoting the Head of one of our most prominent independent schools too

The reason the Dutch speak English so well is that they are exposed to it on TV from a very early age. They do not dub cartoons etc. Also they start speaking the language at school when they are 8.
At VWO which is the equivalent of A levels they do 7 subjects one of which is English. My DD did the equivalent of A level Maths, Economics, Dutch, French, German, English, Geography and History. They have a much more rounded education than the three subjects they do here.