Grammar Schools...... would you like to see a return?

I am in two minds about Grammar schools as a child I failed my 11 plus and went to a girls-only secondary school, my younger sister passed and I think had a much better education than I did. Some secondary modern schools did not offer the opportunity to do 'O' levels. I wasn't given the opportunity to take Science or Maths at 'O' level.

In my day it was such an unfair system as a boy could attain the same mark as a girl yet be offered a place at Grammar school whereas a girl wasn't. Also, you could get the same mark as another child in another part of the country yet one could be offered a place at grammar school and the other not.

Both my children went to a state comprehensive school but they hated it and they weren't pushed academically. I do think we should bring back the old technical colleges for those that are not academic. Also, comprehensive schools tend to be much larger than the old grammar schools and secondary schools. Setting does take place but quite often setting takes place on the basis of how you do in one subject which is grouped together with other subjects.

At the beginning of December 2013, the seven Grammar schools in Gloucestershire have made a decision to change the examining board to Durham University – CEM (Centre of Evaluation and Monitoring). This is because they are concerned by the amount of tutoring that takes place. The CEM tests enable children to demonstrate their academic ability without excessive tutoring. CEM do not produce any books or papers. The test relies heavily on good mathematical and English skills.

It surprised me, when GS was getting ready to leave junior school, what a rising tide of panic there was from parents who were only just in the catchment area for the city’s most desired secondary school. People actually moved house to be closer to the school, or started looking at private schools “just in case”.. What engendered the panic was that, to increase provision, the local authority built a new school also within the catchment which was due to open that year. New, untested, no track record. Where would their first intake be coming from? What sort of education were they going to get if there was only one year group in the whole school to begin with? All that sort of thing seemed to be exercising people to the point of distraction. Nobody wanted a total unknown quantity for their children. In fact this school is part of an academy trust, and while “it is not selective” it was made clear that no-one would be press ganged into attending; pupils would only be accepted if they and their parents were prepared to buy into the school’s ethos of a traditional curriculum, a very long school day - 8.30 until 5.00 p.m. - red hot discipline and good manners. It takes its pupils from a very wide catchment that includes some of the poorer areas of the city. The ethos appears to be somewhere between a good grammar and an independent. It appears to be very successful and has been oversubscribed every year it’s been open. Yet this is a state secondary school. I doubt it will be a model for all state secondary schools, but elements of it must be seen to have merit, I think.

25Avalon I remember the economical larger sizes from the second hand shop, run by the school, for the same reason. Pity the third child who also got handed down things.
Purplepixie you only have to read any social media sites to learn that people get ‘up their own backsides’ about anything they have that is different, and that includes opinions about schools.

Rubbish Purplepixie. I passed 11 Plus for grammar school. No way were my family elite. We were middle to upper working class. I stayed behind at primary school for homework which no one else did. The school uniform at grammar school was only available from one supplier and was so expensive that most of mine was bought from the school’s second hand shop. All in larger sizes to make it last. Very elite!

Let me just summarise this.

If you are very well off or think that giving up the second car is worth it for your children's education - Fee paying schools

If you're not quite so well off but can afford fancy uniforms and tutoring - Grammar schools

If you have the smarts to move closer to a "good" school or get your children tutored - "good" comprehensive.

If you are disadvantaged, or can't play the system - bog standard comprehensive.

Greyduster 10:37, I agree with you.

Grammar schools were always for the elite in the past. No, I dont want to see them coming back. Too many people will be up their own backsides when they get their little brats into them. No way. Stay the way we are.

And when you get fed up of the argument, comment on someone’s use of ‘myself’.????

* Growstuff* patronising to you, but the truth to me. I did not see you keeping quiet about how well your daughter done, and you were quick to compare your daughter who went to a Grammer School in not too favourable terms.
As for not worrying about other children, I leave that to their parents. I cannot help or judge what other parents do with their children.
Long may the Gramnar School thrive in my area, and long may the children who have academic ability, whatever their parents income thrive, as my daughter did.

We have grammar schools in our County, entrance by 11+ , 13+ or sixth form (depending on GCSE results)

Several of the single sex faith schools also operate an entrance exam system, it’s appears to be spreading across the County.

GG13, that’s just what it sounds like and I think, once one school does it, others will follow. The selection process is alive and well under a different hat.
The only difference will be the choice of whether or not to sit the entrance exam instead of making everyone take it, whether it is suitable or not.

One of our local Comprehensive schools has an Entrance Test for pupils not in the catchment area.

This is basically the 11+ by another name!

Should we not be asking ourselves what makes a good comprehensive good, when there are so many bad ones, and I’m not talking about being in affluent areas. There are some good comprehensives now in poorer catchments. If we address this, could not all comprehensives be as good as the best ones, and equally as good as grammar schools, as some are?

Mollygo

Growstuff, if one secondary gets the best results and is always oversubscribed, it’s like having a Grammar School, without an entrance exam.
I don’t know the %, but if 25% go to the grammar school and another large percentage of children likely to get good results go to the preferred secondary, it doesn’t bode well for the other schools.

No, it's not. Grammar schools select and cannot be compared with an all-ability school.

Your last paragraph explains perfectly why all schools should be supported to be good and why the attempt to make them competitive and obey market forces has been detrimental to education as a whole.

Witzend

IMO the trouble with any school that’s rated very good or outstanding, is that it’s all too likely to be in an area where house prices and rents are relatively high. So children from lower income families are often excluded because they’re outside the catchment area.

Not inevitably.

rafichagran

I am not talking about 50 years ago as someone said upthread. The Grammar School my daughter went to was excellent, I did not like the Schools she could attend in my Borough. Of course there are excellent comps, but they have streaming and one when my daughter was younger one outside our area had what they called a grammar stream.
In her Grammar School she was in a class with pupils of mainly the same ability, she made friends and contacts for life. My daughter is very able to mix with people from all walks of life as het family and the people we knew kept her grounded. She knew her worth but did not have a sense of self importance.
My daughter had the best education possible and I would not begrudge this to other children.

I wonder if you realise how patronising that sounds.

Yes, there most certainly are excellent comprehensive schools, mainly in areas where there are no grammar schools to select the most able.

By the way, very few schools "stream" these days - they "set", which means a child could be in one set for maths and another one for English. They are likely to mix with children of all abilities in some subjects.

Both my children are very able and went to a comprehensive school, where they made friends and contacts for life. They were even the "right" sort of contacts. They also had a more balanced experience than I did - a former direct grammar school pupil.

Your daughter might have had an excellent education, but you really don't seem the slightest bit bothered that there will be others in your borough whose school will have been affected by losing the most able and might very well find themselves stigmatised for attending a school which you consider second rate.

No child will be deprived of the experience your daughter had in a genuinely inclusive comprehensive.

Snorkel

Myself and my daughter went to comprehensive schools. Her father was a boarder at a well known private boys school. His lack of awareness and intellect is embarrassing for us both. An old friend sent her granddaughter to a famous private girls school in South Kensington. The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob. You can't buy intelligence/academic ability or class.

Wow. What a great example of inverted snobbery.

I wouldn't normally say anything about how people write - I have no room to criticise - but what a strange use of "myself".

Snorkel

Myself and my daughter went to comprehensive schools. Her father was a boarder at a well known private boys school. His lack of awareness and intellect is embarrassing for us both. An old friend sent her granddaughter to a famous private girls school in South Kensington. The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob. You can't buy intelligence/academic ability or class.

What a unpleasant post. You state you and your daughter are embarrased by your husband. You refer to a child as a nasty entitled snob.
You are right you cannot buy class, you come across as a inverted snob and very judgemental. Who are you to be embarrased about anybody with a post like you have just written.

Mollygo
Yes I agree, the comprehensive three of my grandchildren attend near London is massively oversubscribed, you practically have to live on the doorstep, and having a sibling is no guarantee of a place.

IMO the trouble with any school that’s rated very good or outstanding, is that it’s all too likely to be in an area where house prices and rents are relatively high. So children from lower income families are often excluded because they’re outside the catchment area.

I am not talking about 50 years ago as someone said upthread. The Grammar School my daughter went to was excellent, I did not like the Schools she could attend in my Borough. Of course there are excellent comps, but they have streaming and one when my daughter was younger one outside our area had what they called a grammar stream.
In her Grammar School she was in a class with pupils of mainly the same ability, she made friends and contacts for life. My daughter is very able to mix with people from all walks of life as het family and the people we knew kept her grounded. She knew her worth but did not have a sense of self importance.
My daughter had the best education possible and I would not begrudge this to other children.

The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob.
A child shouldn't be damned for life in anyone's eyes just because of the school she went to.

Growstuff, if one secondary gets the best results and is always oversubscribed, it’s like having a Grammar School, without an entrance exam.
I don’t know the %, but if 25% go to the grammar school and another large percentage of children likely to get good results go to the preferred secondary, it doesn’t bode well for the other schools.

Myself and my daughter went to comprehensive schools. Her father was a boarder at a well known private boys school. His lack of awareness and intellect is embarrassing for us both. An old friend sent her granddaughter to a famous private girls school in South Kensington. The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob. You can't buy intelligence/academic ability or class.

Grandmama Why do you think less able pupils behave badly?

Mollygo It depends what percentage of the most able the grammar school takes. If it is anything more than 2 or 3%, there is absolutely no doubt that the pupils at the other secondary schools in the area would achieve better results.

In some areas, up to 25% of pupils go to grammar schools. If those pupils went to fully inclusive secondary schools, of course the results at those schools would improve.

If measured intelligence is plotted on a standard bell curve, approximately 60% of all people are within 10 points of being average. About 20% are above average (with the majority of them only being a little above average). It is inevitable that some pupils at some grammar schools are in the "average" group and are there through luck and/or tutoring.

Whether a child achieves highly depends to a large extent on genetics, family background and ... hard work.