Grammar Schools...... would you like to see a return?

My niece went to the local high school, titled a Comprehensive rather than the Grammar school, but her secondary education was streamed and was excellent. She is studying law. She worked hard to get into the top stream because she said there was too much disruption in the other streams.
I have mixed feelings about secondary education. For me and for my children, the Grammar was the best choice.
For my GC, if they could go to the secondary with the best results, that’s would be fine, but it’s always oversubscribed. Because they can’t be guaranteed a place there, I think my DD plans for them to sit the Grammar entrance exam.
Would the other secondaries be better if the grammar school did not exist? Who knows?

No ,What Granny Helen?

My all girls grammar school had high standards all round. I loved it. DH who failed the 11+ was sent to a boarding school by his parents rather than to a secondary modern (although the nearest one to them was very good). He often comments on what a good school I must have attended when we're talking or watching quiz shows or documentaries on TV because quite often I'll say - 'Oh, we did that at school'. All our teachers were graduates in the subjects that they taught even though some of them probably didn't have a separate teaching qualification. When the school went comprehensive it went downhill, a friend's daughter who was there before and after the changeover said there was a huge drop in behaviour. Exam results were poor and eventually it closed.

I agree with you MOnica. I haven't picked up every inaccuracy on this thread but they're quite enlightening.

Froggyspawn

barbaramcgibben

Why is it that only people whose children are not at grammar schools are against them?

I’m against grammar schools,I think they are unfair and divisive.I might change my mind if you could show me that a grammar/ secondary modern selective system produces the best education for all children,not just the academically able (who I think will also achieve well in a good comprehensive.).We have those areas where grammar schools never went away so it shouldn’t be difficult!
My children didn’t go to grammar schools,but I did -I was vety happy in my selective school,it suited me and I did well. But I thought it was an unfair system then,it divided my friendship group and created a them and us situation.I still think it’s a bad system now.

That's it isn't it Froggyspawn

That's it isn't it Froggyspawn. It comes down to do you want a divided system of them and us or one system that caters for each and every student.

We have a lot of GN members, it seems, who strive to tell us they are "better than" and want this to, continue half a century on - as long as it's for those they think are the "right" sort!

Ooops! Sorry about the duplication.

Pantglas2

Actually Jilly, my question was rhetorical- expecting Tony Blair to abolish them was a non starter given his educational background.

I loved Thatcher’s retort about Grammar schools, that they’d enabled her to match the education received by Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn!

But the situation has changed since Thatcher was at school. Before the 1944 Education Act was enacted in 1947, few children after the age of 11 received anything other than an elementary education, unless they were exceptionally clever or paid for it. After 1947, all children were able to access grammar schools, so some whose parents wouldn't have been able to afford the fees were able to go. The offering in secondary moderns for the majority was still second-rate. These days, all children have access to a proper secondary education. It seems to me that many people on this thread are talking about a bygone era and not the situation as it is today.

Pantglas2

Actually Jilly, my question was rhetorical- expecting Tony Blair to abolish them was a non starter given his educational background.

I loved Thatcher’s retort about Grammar schools, that they’d enabled her to match the education received by Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn!

But the situation has changed since Thatcher was at school. Before the 1944 Education Act was enacted in 1947, few children after the age of 11 received anything other than an elementary education, unless they were exceptionally clever or paid for it. After 1947, all children were able to access grammar schools, so some whose parents wouldn't have been able to afford the fees were able to go. The offering in secondary moderns for the majority was still second-rate. These days, all children have access to a proper secondary education. It seems to me that many people on this thread are talking about a bygone era and not the situation as it is today.

Pantglas2

Actually Jilly, my question was rhetorical- expecting Tony Blair to abolish them was a non starter given his educational background.

I loved Thatcher’s retort about Grammar schools, that they’d enabled her to match the education received by Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn!

But the situation has changed since Thatcher was at school. Before the 1944 Education Act was enacted in 1947, few children after the age of 11 received anything other than an elementary education, unless they were exceptionally clever or paid for it. After 1947, all children were able to access grammar schools, so some whose parents wouldn't have been able to afford the fees were able to go. The offering in secondary moderns for the majority was still second-rate. These days, all children have access to a proper secondary education. It seems to me that many people on this thread are talking about a bygone era and not the situation as it is today.

In my town ,11 plus aged children fell into 3 neat heaps:- grammar , technical and secondary modern. I went to a bilateral school which had tech and modern pupils. The tech had some silly rules ie. no O level eng. lit., only A level . Girls couldn’t do physics or tech. drawing. These options, amongst others, were meant to reflect the kind of careers we would have. There seemed no sense to it. My older sister went to the grammar school on the same base. I went to university. She didn’t.

What about all the poorer children who are slow developers or for a host of other reasons did not do of their best at 11? Or those who were in full flower at 11, who by 15 or 16 had discovered they were not cut out for a grammar school education and had no desire to go to university or into any of the professions grammar school encourages. I had friends like that. One had a nervous breakdown as a result.

DDiL and her sister were struggling coping with the loss of their father, he died of cancer and their mother had no family support, both failed their 11+. DDiL went to university in her 20s and went on to get an MA, PhD and is an academic.

barbaramcgibben

Why is it that only people whose children are not at grammar schools are against them?

What makes you say that barbaramcgibben? We seem to have more about old people who went to Grammer Schools, presumably in the 1950s and 60s. How many people have said what sort of school their childen went to. And how many know anything about education for the world the GCs will grow in to?

barbaramcgibben

Why is it that only people whose children are not at grammar schools are against them?

I’m against grammar schools,I think they are unfair and divisive.I might change my mind if you could show me that a grammar/ secondary modern selective system produces the best education for all children,not just the academically able (who I think will also achieve well in a good comprehensive.).We have those areas where grammar schools never went away so it shouldn’t be difficult!
My children didn’t go to grammar schools,but I did -I was vety happy in my selective school,it suited me and I did well. But I thought it was an unfair system then,it divided my friendship group and created a them and us situation.I still think it’s a bad system now.

I think Grammar schools are a brilliant way of providing an excellent education to those who are bright enough to benefit but whose parents could not afford private school fees. To remove them would take away their last bit of social mobility. I did pass my 11 plus and was offered a grammar place, but the long list of clothing/equipment/ musical instruments etc meant my parents regretfully said no, and it was the Comp for me.

DH and I went to grammar schools. Our children went privately from 11. The schools, DD's in particular, had demanding entrance exams, so I assume they would have passed the 11+. DGC are both on the LA's Gifted and Talented Programme, so I assume they would have passed as well.

I am opposed to grammar schools, and have said so on evry post I hve made on this thread.

barberamcgibben it is wise toc heck your facts before posting on GN. If you say something inaccurate, someone, in this case me, will pick you up on it. And, I haven't checked but I am sure I am not the only person to post on this thread who is opposed to grammar schools and has benefitted from them and is confident other familiy members would have as well.

I am in favour of grammar schools.

Why is it that only people whose children are not at grammar schools are against them?

No

I went to a state Grammar School and felt very privileged to do so. What you did when you got there was up to you.
You could work or you could idol, just like in a Comprehensive today. I can remember girls leaving at 15 the age hadn't been raised then to 16, boys who did not bother to turn up for O level exams. Girls who had to "leave." because they were pregnant. Both my father and DFL went to Grammar schools my father who was the scholarship boy did much better in life than my DFL
My parents never had me tutored it was the Primary I attended, if you showed potential you repeated the "Scholarship "class twice and missed out year 5.
I know children who went to private schools and spent their time on corridors because of bad behaviour.
I know people who went to the local secondary modern and have done well in life.
It's not where you go but how you apply yourself when you get there and how you are influenced by others.
If you worked hard there was always a second chance the "Late Developers" as they called it and in my county a third chance then a possibility of going into the sixth form at the Grammar school
Having worked in Education you see the intelligent idol children and the ones who look at others and decide to do as good.

I went to the SM, my best friend to the Grammar.
We never spoke to each other again, it was different worlds.

I attended Grammar school which was located right next door to a Secondary Modern school. The rivalry and class divide that this caused was horrendous! I personally didn't consider myself to be any better than anyone else but clearly this attitude did exist. There was trouble most weeks and I am not laying blame on any school in particular either!
This mostly ceased once both schools amalgamated to form a Comprehensive.

I definitely would not like a return to the grammar school system. I sat (and passed) the 11+ in 1955 and I remember it being stressful. It also broke up friendships and became divisive. My best friend from primary school failed the exam and her parents were so upset at the thought of her going to the local secondary modern that they moved to another area of the country. There was unpleasant rivalry between the grammar school pupils and the secondary modern pupils - it would be called gang culture nowadays.

People also forget that the 11+ exam was a flawed system. The percentage of grammar school places differed between different local authority areas of the country. A child who failed the exam in an area with a lower percentage of grammar places might well have passed in an area where there was a higher percentage of grammar places. I welcomed the introduction of comprehensive education in the 1960s and my own DDs progressed seamlessly from primary school to comprehensive in the 1980s, maintaining old friendships from primary school and making new ones.

I was in care as a child and in an unhapy situation. I did go to a grammar school. Our teachers were all at degree level in their subjects. I liked the school and it was old fashioned. Uniforms had to be 100% correct etc. and we had to stand when a teacher walked in. We all lived to a certrain code and could not waiver. We had lovely reading lists every term.
I left having a wonderful love of literature and history.
I am in Lincolnshire where there are grammar schools - one of the lucky counties.
Stephen Sackur went to the grammar in Alford and even got to Yale (I did interview him once - name dropper!) and Robert Webb the comedian went to Cambridge and then of course he is a comedian. He went to Horncastle Grammar School. Horncastle has an amazing amount of Oxbridge entrants.
I like grammars I admit.
I have spoken to teachers from academies and they have horror stories of behaviour in particular.One teacher used to walk into lessons and girls would have hairdressers plugged in drying their hair and boys throwing things around. He took early retirement.

We have them in Buckinghamshire and my DS got a first class education, which I am very grateful for.

My sister went to the secondary and I went to the Grammer,
she still refers to me as the 'grammer school kid' , it always
exists between us.
My children were brought up in France where I thought the
'seperation' of children was handled much better.
Everyone went to Primary, followed by 'Collége' untill the
age of 15/16.
The choice then arose to continue on the academic path to
Lycée and Baccalaureat (a stressfull time for the parents never
mind the participants) or the choice to go to a Lycée Professional and a qualification in the chosen field be it
Hotelerie, mechanics , cuisine, fashion, commerce, you name
it , its possible, plus of course Apprentiships.
The decision to take which path is made jointly by the child, the parents and 'Orientation advisor' based on past academic
results and the inclination of all parties, no pressure.
I felt that 16 year olds were more in a position to decide where their strengths and ambitions lay more than an 11 year old.
My sister never got over the 'stigma' of being educated in the
'secondclass' system and I thoroughly enjoyed the prestige and benefits of my good Grammar School.