Grammar Schools...... would you like to see a return?

Grammar schools are state schools and I think the basic idea was good. But kids should have been IQ tested early and moved into ability sets at primary to give everyone a chance. I was ridiculously bored at secondary school and left at 16. Years later I discovered I have a high IQ. My school was a grammar; in some ways it did lead to social mobility - my parents had no money and little education. I worked my way up to a very good job and in fact later took an MSc and BSc in different subjects. So I am torn. If I’d have gone to our local comprehensive I am sure I would have got into some serious trouble through sheer boredom!

I would be interested to know where all those families moving out of London to more rural areas are going to send their children to school. I suspect those from private schools in London might be happy to try state schools in the provinces.

Horses for courses. Some are suited to grammar schools, others not. My 4 daughters all went to the same primary school but 4 different high schools. Three went to private schools, one to a ‘good’ state school. They all went to uni. One went to what you would describe as a ‘posh’ private school on a scholarship. She certainly ended up very self confident and I think this was largely to do with the school and maybe that she was the youngest,too.

When I was at the Sec Mod, we were invited to take the 13+, I begged my dad not to make me, and was surprised when he agreed, I think now, he couldn’t have stood the shame of me failing twice.
Two of my friends took it, and one passed, and I think she settled in very happily.

Grammar schools are excellent - for those who get to go to them.

They don't create social mobility for those who fail to go to them. It's very hard, if not impossible, for a child to move up, integrate, loose their friends - or for a struggling child to move the other way. Streaming in a comprehensive is much more fluid and flexible.

What I thought was really hilarious (sorry!), was that when I did my A-levels' at my local technical college I met a number of people who had been privately educated, failed their O- levels and then went to college to re-take and then do A- levels. I wondered what their parents thought, spending a fortune and getting very little in return.
I went to college BTW as clearly there were no uniforms and the range of subjects suited me. Oh, I hated those uniforms with a vengeance!

When I went to school (in the Stone Age) nobody got extra tuition. Nobody went to anything other than the local secondary school, except one person whose parents paid for her to go to a single sex school 40 miles away. We thought that was odd. Anyway....

Out of us state schooled, non-tutored people, we have several PhDs, a couple of doctors, an ex RAF pilot, a diplomat, a few vets, several business people......I could go on.

None of us needed our parents' money either to pay for our education or get tutored so that we could do better. Because we got a proper state education. Free for everybody. It really doesn't seem that difficult a concept to me.

ome grammar schools are academically very good. The problem with grammar schools and that system is children are divided at age 11 into successes and failures.

Please take 5 minutes to read this excellent article.
www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwizzM6R4qXwAhVIRhUIHQNgCrAQFjAKegQIAhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fthecritic.co.uk%2Fthe-end-of-the-old-school-tie%2F&usg=AOvVaw12kC8MaOwXDGh-OKrTK-i_

varian

Ah but will you and your child make all the valuable social connections without membership of "the old boys club"?

Possibly not varian.

Ah but will you and your child make all the valuable social connections without membership of "the old boys club"?

Your last sentence is interesting Rosie.
I really don't see the difference between private tutoring of a state school pupil and buying the whole education at a private school. Both are using their money to buy education and advantage.
From an educational point of view you might even be getting more for your money in employing a 1:1 teacher for your state school child. (But might need to do this 5 nights a week to pack in all the subjects).
In an independent school you are paying a lot for the value added - like the facilities for sports, music, drama and dance, the posh lunches etc. It's a sort of package, but if parents can find the time to pack in swimming, ballet, rugby, etc at the weekend then you could find the education is much of a muchness.

The biggest problem is that even if you ban private education and grammar schools, not all comprehensive schools provide equal education opportunities, and it's naive to think they do. Why else are houses in the catchment areas of "good" comprehensives more expensive than houses surrounding poorly achieving schools? My children all went to the local comprehensive, not considered the best, we couldn't afford a house in that catchment area. What we didn't do, but know others that did (even some at the good school), was buy privilege by employing private tutors. I really don't see the difference between private tutoring of a state school pupil and buying the whole education at a private school. Both are using their money to buy education and advantage.

No, no, no, to grammar schools, I passed the 11 plus went to
girls grammar school, my sister failed and went to secondary modern. Christmas celebrations girls grammar and boys grammar celebrated together, no mixing with the sec mod.
It’s brutal.

My daughters and three grandchildren went to the High School, it worked well for them, two grandchildren went to university , third grandchild in her third year.

rafichagran I didn't wish to imply kids who fail their 11+ should feel bad, it's just some do.

growstuff

foxie I think you've misunderstood what I meant. If there are grammar schools in the same area as academies, the academies aren't fully inclusive. They are, in effect, secondary moderns because they don't have the most able pupils. Therefore, they are the result of a selective system.

Yes I did but actually grammars (where they still exist) cream off middle class kids from across a wide area, including out of the authority, not necessarily the most able. In most authorities, I don't think they impact very much on the mix of ability in comps, in authorities like Bucks and Kent, they most definitely do though. I'm not pro grammar schools, these days they are not the route to social mobility that they used to be. I know lots of parents who pay for private coaching with the view that if they get a grammar school place they save the money they would have spent on a fee paying school!

“Oxbridge have openly admitted they have discriminated against private/ public school pupils.”

Yes, but that’s entirely political, due to the threat of loosing public financing, quite rightly too.

We still have grammar schools and many parents go to a great deal of effort to get their children into one, even to the extent of extra tuition. I didn’t do that because either they have the natural ability to cope with the higher workload or they havn’t and the burden of struggling at the bottom of the class is not good.
I failed my 11 plus and I’m glad I did because I would not have done well, high school suited me well, there is no doubt that grammar schools places here are in demand, particularly the Girls Grammar.

Alegrias1 Success and opportunity are two different things.
I agree a public school education gave our sons more opportunity.
Their success they earned.

Oxbridge have openly admitted they have discriminated against private/ public school pupils.
I understand their reasons.

Sago. Imagine two children, equally intelligent, equally keen to learn, equally confident. One goes to a school where the class sizes are 30+, funds are stretched to the limit, there's no money for extras like music lessons or sport, teachers are run ragged. The other goes to a school where there are small classes, every child gets individual attention, mummy and daddy can afford violin lessons and the science labs are fully kitted out.

Now, what are the chances that each child is going to be successful?

Not every child at public is going to do well, and not every child in a secondary modern will be consigned to the gutter. But when it comes to life chances, your parents' money buys you opportunity. And that's no way to run a society.

And as for the notion that attending a good school or being intelligent is now being discriminated against. Words fail me.

If all comprehensives were good, no-one would miss grammar schools, but they aren’t. My grandson’s comprehensive is as good as any grammar school and they have a good record of getting pupils into Russell Group universities and Oxbridge, but it is one of a few, in an affluent area. We should be working to bring up standards in all schools in all areas, instead of hankering after a system where huge numbers of children were condemned as ‘also rans’, which happened when I was at school. Having said that, being the product of a secondary modern didn’t necessarily mean that you would “end up working in Woolworths” - a warning that was often held over us if school work was slipping. Many of us left and went on to technical colleges, boys into apprenticeships and from there often into middle management positions in industry. My cousin went down this route and had a career that would have been the envy of many who left grammar school to follow more mundane careers. But there were jobs and opportunities in industry and commerce in those days that don’t exist today.

No!! My poor late brother just scraped through and got into our grammar school and he suffered for it all his school life, he wasn’t mentally equipped to be at grammer school.I can still see him now struggling home with a satchel full of books, he was only a small child thin with glasses and to think of it now makes me so sad...

Growstuff I dont assume the Grammar School education was best for my daughter, I know it was. I did not think the other Schools near me were suitable for her.
I do feel the Grammar Schools were the best for a good education in the area I live in, but you are entitled to your opinion, I do not know where you live so cannot comment on the Schools in your area.
In every School you find pupils who are unhappy. My daughter had a wonderful time at School, and a all round positive experience.

I liked the grammar schools ,they had a very high standard of education or at least the one I went to did. There is a certain amount of discrimination against very bright children these days, I see that they are quite disadvantaged, particularly if they are not particularly outspoken. Subtle but definitely there. Reverse of what things used to be I think.

At my secondary modern
career options were office, shop
or factory. No expectation of anything more.
No doubt that narrow view has changed.