Children not ready to start school aged 4

Chestnut

This problem may not be new but I'm sure it's getting worse. Some are only just turned 4yrs which is quite young. So maybe they should start school on their 5th birthday regardless of the time of year. The school should learn to integrate them during the school year as they turn 5yrs old.

Some on here will remember that we used to do that. Three term entries based on birthdate. September, January and Easter.
For a few years as a new teacher, I had a mixed Reception/Y1 class, with Y1 who had been in for 1 or 2 or 3 terms and Reception who started at different times of the year (as above). After Easter I had 38 altogether. Teaching was interesting and TAs hadn’t been invented!
Parents were not happy if their neighbour’s ‘autumn or spring born’ child could start before their own ‘summer born’ and would produce evidence that their little genius deserved to start earlier.
When schools are now paid for bottoms on seats, it’s hard to say, “Yes we'll keep a place till January for little Alex, much less keep a place for little Alexia till April,” especially if you are an over-subscribed school.
So basically, whilst I agree with the point you make Chestnut, I wouldn’t like to go back to how it was.
In addition, there is no guarantee that the children would be any more ready to listen do and learn if the home or pre-school provision wasn’t up to much.

Loads of people who use private nurseries expect the staff/nursery to implement potty training etc. How is that different?

DD, who only went to playgroup and never a nursery, started school 3 weeks after her 4th birthday. She was already reading by then as we had read to her virtually from day 1 and the love of books has stayed with her. She loved school but by the end of the first term she was exhausted and could barely keep her eyes open until home time!
There is no excuse for parents who will not spend time with their children. Don’t give me the guff about “ both parents have to work” etc. They all seem to have plenty of time to be glued to their phones.

JaneJudge

Loads of people who use private nurseries expect the staff/nursery to implement potty training etc. How is that different?

Some go to private nurseries practically birth from until school age so are, of course, in nappies. Presumably the nursery staff will collaborate with whatever toilet training the parents want to do.

There will be more staff, including more nursery nurses.
A school nursery may have a trained teacher and a couple of nursery nurses for 24 children and they don't start until age 3+.

In Scotland the cut-off date for school entry is 1st March, but if children are going to be still 4 in the August when they can start school, they can have school entry deferred for a year, which is an advantage for some and seems less rigid than the system in England.

All ours were autumn or winter birthdays, but were ready for school, (including being toilet-trained) and able to read as I had the time to teach them, and so went when they were 4. One of them got a 4-year Honours degree while still 20, so it seemed to work!

Primaries 1 and 2 are now doing play-based learning and I haven't heard how that is working. I understand that it means that they can choose activities for most of the time, but are taken in groups by the teacher for some more formal learning for a while every day.

My son started primary school a month after his 4th birthday! He left an amazing playgroup and I was reluctant to send him to school. I might add he could hold a pencil and was fully toilet trained and he settled well , however he was not ready for school! After a few months we were informed that he was not achieving, was academically behind his peers - reading skills poor! His teacher was shocked at my acceptance of this , I reminded her that he was still only 4 years old and suggested that if his school performance did not improve within the next 18 months then I would address the situation . Before that time we moved to another county, his new teacher there informed me that having read his report from the previous school so he was expecting a child with a learning disability. She then told me that the report had gone in the bin! Had he needed special education I would of course have accepted that , but he was simply not ready for school. Even today there is too much emphasis on formal school , our children need sound learning experiences through play !! I might add that my son is fine and has a successful career ?!

Wheniwasyourage 'Primaries 1 and 2 are now doing play-based learning and I haven't heard how that is working. I understand that it means that they can choose activities for most of the time, but are taken in groups by the teacher for some more formal learning for a while every day.'

That is how the primary schools in and around me work. I quite agree! Let children be children. Four years old is very young to start school.

The ratio for children to staff is based on age so children in the pre school room in a private nursery will have the same ratio as a state nursery. Occasionally it will be higher if they have 2 year olds in their pre school room. Obviously it will be higher in the baby room for example.

In Scotland the cut-off date for school entry is 1st March, but if children are going to be still 4 in the August when they can start school, they can have school entry deferred for a year, which is an advantage for some and seems less rigid than the system in England.

Wheniwasyourage
The rules were strict in Wales too - if the parents decided to keep a summer-born child back for a year, the child had to join school the next year in Year 1 so they missed out on reception class and making friends with their peer group.
They may have changed now, I don't now.

Don't know.

Dgs1 will start nursery this month at the age of 3. Dd and Sil have already made sure he is toilet trained, although he was ready. They read to him, he knows numbers, colours, shapes and can recognise letters. I taught English for a long time and there were children entering first year (aged 11/12) who couldn't recognise shapes , some who couldn't read and others who didn't know numbers. I was on secondment and worked with primary schools. They would tell me the biggest problem was illiterate parents and parents who neglected their children's emotional development. Often those at risk children were kept off school thus compounding their issues. The primary schools ran literacy classes for parents and did their damnest to engage those who were indifferent. It was heartbreaking to see those who reached secondary school and were failing to thrive. We did what we could, but for many it was too late to make a big enough difference. The loss of Sure Start and early intervention teams has contributed to this. As you can tell, it's a subject I feel strongly about. Anything which closes the gap at a young age is to be applauded.

love0c

Children 'deserve' the very best from the day they are born. Why would anyone discourage that? Clearly some on her would.

In an ideal world, maybe. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world, and it's very easy to be judgemental from the lofty position of that moral high ground.
However, the reality is that you know nothing about the backgrounds of these children with 'lax parents' - and no matter what parents they have, it's not the fault of the child. Why should they be punished or disadvantaged through no fault of their own?

Callistemon21

JaneJudge

Loads of people who use private nurseries expect the staff/nursery to implement potty training etc. How is that different?

Some go to private nurseries practically birth from until school age so are, of course, in nappies. Presumably the nursery staff will collaborate with whatever toilet training the parents want to do.

There will be more staff, including more nursery nurses.
A school nursery may have a trained teacher and a couple of nursery nurses for 24 children and they don't start until age 3+.

Both my children were at a private nursery from six months to school age. There was an opportunity to talk to nursery staff every day. The nursery had special mini toilets and "potty training" was started at two or three, depending on the readiness of the child. I can't remember the exact ratios of staff, but there were five rooms and the number of staff per child decreased as they got older. They had been fully dry for ages before they started school. They could also hold a pencil, do basic reading and addition/subtraction, sit still, share with others and knew how to interact with other children by the time they started primary school. The people who think somebody other than parents can't give pre-school children what they want and need are talking rubbish.

tidyskatemum My children certainly did have to go to nursery and I don't think I even had a mobile phone when they were young.

I would have loved for my children and grandchildren to have had the opportunity to start formal schooling at seven, it would be wonderful to think of them outside in the fresh air instead of sat behind a desk.
But that’s not how we do things here, so we need to make sure our little ones are ready for school as far as we can.
Even if we were fortunate enough to have this system, it still wouldn’t suit every child, I think two of mine would have absolutely thrived, but one of them, always bookish, would have been wanting to get on.

Growstuff
At my grandchildrens nursery, they take the lead with potty training, they tell the parents when they intend to start, and hopefully the parents will support them.
Worked brilliantly for ours.

The people who think somebody other than parents can't give pre-school children what they want and need are talking rubbish.

I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing, growstuff
Of course people other than parents can provide what children need to learn.

I don't think I even had a mobile phone when they were young.
I don't think they were invented when mine were young ?

I didn't have a mobile phone either and I am still irritated when mine rings now

I never hear mine and usually find it out of charge in the bottom of my handbag.

Mine is very old, but during lockdown I actually managed to learn my number after more than 12 years!!

I don’t know my number, and I only answer my phone if I recognise the caller

Sara1954

Growstuff
At my grandchildrens nursery, they take the lead with potty training, they tell the parents when they intend to start, and hopefully the parents will support them.
Worked brilliantly for ours.

My recollection is that's what happened with mine. The staff took the lead and kept parents informed. I would imagine if parents hadn't liked what was happening they could have given an opinion.

Callistemon21

^The people who think somebody other than parents can't give pre-school children what they want and need are talking rubbish.^

I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing, growstuff
Of course people other than parents can provide what children need to learn.

I don't think I even had a mobile phone when they were young.
I don't think they were invented when mine were young ?

I was objecting to these posts:

"I firmly believe parents should be encouraged to 'parent'. While ever 'lax parents' yes I will use that phrase again, are able to expect and leave parenting to nursery, schools etc then I will always speak up. Children 'deserve' the very best from the day they ae born. Why would anyone discourage that? Clearly some on her would."

"We could have had a far more expensive home but that would have meant me going out to work leaving strangers responsible for bringing them up. I didn’t have children for strangers to bring up."

"There is no excuse for parents who will not spend time with their children. Don’t give me the guff about “ both parents have to work” etc. They all seem to have plenty of time to be glued to their phones."

As far as the school starting age is concerned, I think it should be flexible. I also think getting support to the parents and children who need it most is difficult because some parents resent what they see as interference.

Thanks growstuff. I found those three posts objectionable.

In France children at the age of 3 start l'école maternelle, it’s the law and it’s free. It helps the children to communicate through language, physical activities and artistic activities. The 3 Rs start at 6.
However my second daughter started at 2, she was very happy to go.
I taught my first two DDs to read basic English before 5 with the Lady Bird scheme. (It was the 80s and I couldn’t get my hands on anything else at the time), hold a pencil and cut with scissors.
Oh and all 3 were clean before 18 months.

Clearer now growstuff