School uniforms - for or against?

Why are you so het up about this, M0nica?

We cannot tell whether poorer children are intimidated or not intimidated and made to feel awkward unless we are one of those children and that’s my point.
If you are one of those children and you feel bad, (not necessarily intimidated-that implies bullying and if you mean bullied you should say so), then it’s important for you, as an individual, not as a proportion of a group. Who is to say whether the whole group of less well off children feel bad e.g. because their trainers aren’t Nike?
If you are one of those people who feel happy in a school uniform then it is important to you as an individual, not as a proportion of a group. Who is to say that the whole cohort are happy in their school uniform?
If you are one of the designer labels group, then it may be important to you, just as buying the right candles is to some adults.
I’m still not sure what response you want?

Mollygo, my point was, we cannot tell whether poorer children are intimidated and made to feel awkward, by children wearing designer clothes unless we know what proportion of children are dressing like that. two in a class of 30+. I doubt it. 20 in a class of 30+, probably.

It is not who recognises a group in designer clothes or a group who always dress as angels (in school colours obviously), it is the size of that group in relation to the whole that matters.

No idea M0nica.
No idea either about what proportion of posters on GN wear stuff from the White Company or Ugg boots or buy Jo Malone candles and all the other things we discuss on here.
I don’t recollect saying a large proportion would be interested, so I don’t understand your question.
I do think school uniform is a good idea. I do accept that not everyone thinks so.
I do think children in whatever proportion exists notice branded clothes. If you don’t then that doesn’t bother me.

Mollygo Yes, but what proportion of children are actually in this group?

PECS has just posted on her experience of her DGC and it is clear that if we had grandchildren same age, same school, they would all be part of the substantial group of those not interested in designer labels.

It is so easy to trot out these cliches about poor children and rich children. Rich children in their designer labels, poor children in rags. I suspect that the better off the children's families, the more likely they are to be environmentally conscious and chasing vintage clothes.

Lets be honest, if you come from the average middle income home ,I am not talking wealthy, nor am I talking private school but the child from the average 3 bed semi attending the local state school you do not feel the need to prove anything about yourself that is based on money.

I was talking to my youngest’s teacher in the 1980s when another Mum burst in demanding to know why her child’s cardigan had paint on it , as it cost £68! The teacher did mutter “more fool you then”.

Who are all these children demanding expensive clothes and labels?
Initially the children whose parents can afford to buy them. It is often inspired by the parents, who value branded goods e.g. Nike, Ugg, Radley, Seasalt, Jo Malone, but the children become interested very easily. They ask for brands, talk about them and then other children notice and covet.

M0nica I would agree with that experience. I have 3 teen DGCs ..they do like to dress in particular ways but they, and their peers, are also aware of the impact of " fashion" on the environment and are all into second hand clothes..trawling charity shops, buying secondhand clothes at "by the weight' sales. For the upcoming school ' prom' in June my DGD & friends have agreed a price limit on their dresses & a what colour they will wear. If everyone else is in v expensive stuff they won't care because as a group of friends they are happy with their choices.

Who are all these children demanding expensive clothes and labels? I know they exist, but I currently I have two teenage grandchildren. DGD is very clothes conscious, but there has been no demand for designer labels. She did want a pair of Doc Martins, but had to wait until Christmas and have them as a Christmas present. Nor can I see a designer label obsession among her friends. DGS has only just started on his teenage life and so far has shown no interest in clothes.

As I said, yes, some children are obsessed with designer labels, but I suspect these children are not the majority, nor are they all, or many, from the most affluent families. They are just a subset of children in what are usually very big schools and there will be many other subsets of children who are not obsessed with designer labels.

"51Esspee
I think uniforms raise standards both academically and socially."

How exactly does wearing a uniform do this? How do children/ students in high performing countries that do not have uniforms manage?? It is a part of our ingrained class system.

You can only get help towards uniform in exceptional circumstances such as a fire, or something like that.
Another myth that people believe is that single parents get money towards the cost.

I’m completely in favour of school uniform but think it should be of the affordable type you can buy in the chain stores with perhaps a badge bought from the school. When I was a child there was enough money for the uniform and I was so grateful to have it. My father was very strict and my home clothes were always so old fashioned and too young for my age. I would have felt ridiculous if I’d had to wear them to school. I hated parties because my clothes were so different from those of my friends. I often went home from parties crying with embarrassment.

As a teacher in FE, I was filling in with a class of child-care students. The discussion turned to school uniforms which they all claimed to have hated. I looked round the class and, almost every single one of them was wearing a college sweat shirt and denim jeans. Uniform, no way! Uniformity? why not?

Your gc are very lucky Rosie

I'm sure that was ! Also it prevents arguments asking for expensive labels etc . So in conclusion I'm definitely pro uniform.

I must have been an ignorant child attending lots of different schools full of lots of children as ignorant as I was. i can only once in my education remember being aware that a girl in my class came from a family that needed help, I suppose other#s were aware as well but nobody did or said anything about it or treated her differently.

Much the same with my children, I was more aware that some families were not as well off as others. For several years DD was friendly with one of the children in such a family, but whether DD noticed I do not know, it wasn't a subject that was ever discussed at home., nor was it a subject that would have been avoided if either of my children had asked.

I wore a uniform and taught in schools with or without uniform.I believe it has recently been made illegal to make a uniform costly they have to allow high street suppliers. I may be mistaken but I'm Sutterton has recently been encouraged least. Also low income families can only qualify or uniform vouchers for their children if there is a uniform.

I think a sweatshirt or jumper in the school colours would be enough, with smart black trousers and a polo shirt.
Schools should not be allowed to dictate what socks a child should wear.

Goodness it's amazing that my Canadian grandchildren are doing so well at school academically, are kind and well socialised, given they've never had a uniform.
Uniform of the supermarket basics is fine, but the draconian rules about black leather lace up shoes, haircuts etc are ridiculous. As for everything with the school logo embroidered on, bought from one exclusive supplier, that's just fleecing the parents. Should the teachers have to wear a uniform too, after all many workers do?

I would vote to maintain school uniforms.

Most of my school uniform was second-hand and by the time I was wearing it, some of it was also outdated. However the alternative was unthinkable. I literally had hardly any ordinary clothes and shared most of what I had with my older sister - the first up was the (relatively) best dressed in my home. Without school uniform there would have been days when I would have been unable to attend school because I didn’t have enough clothing, or it was the wrong season to wear what I had.

There is no need for school uniforms to be expensive, my grandson’s came from a supermarket and the school supplied badges to be sewn or ironed on.

very much pro. When looking for the area to settle our family, 1976, we happened to go into a local shop and there were several children in uniform, looking very smart and were very well mannered. That made up our minds for us, we chose an area within that school catchment.

Uniforms all around when me and my six siblings went to school after 11, no uniforms before then. We were so proud of our uniforms, identified with the various schools and an absolutely wonderful financial leveller. My parents were poor but saved and saved to get the uniforms, they did have maintenance grants to help

I saw my dgc today, looking so `grown up` in their uniforms and it certainly makes life so much easier for parents. The children know what they need to wear and that`s that

I'm in favour of school uniform as long as it's not like my one, which was only available from one store with a never ending list of items. My uniform cost £400 in 1965 which is outrageous. My eldest son on the other hand could wear generic school trousers etc. his only specific items were a polo shirt with school logo and sweatshirt with school logo. That was it and much more affordable. My second son wore a logo'd blazer and a school tie the rest could be bought anywhere. I think it helps if pupils can be Identified by their uniform

I think uniforms raise standards both academically and socially.
There is no need for exclusive suppliers, a sweatshirt, polo shirt and tie if necessary in school colours with basic trousers or skirts in black navy or grey and white shirts is enough. All the supermarkets stock these items with the exception of the tie which I consider unnecessary.
I do feel strongly that skirts should touch the floor when the child is kneeling. It’s a simple rule which is not open to misinterpretation. I cannot understand mothers who allow their daughters to go to school in skirts more like belts.

M0nica
Mollygo you would notice rich and poor children because you are an adult, but do the children.
Actually, yes. In the past in a non uniform school I had to deal with children commenting on x wearing too big/too small clothes or y wearing torn clothes or holey jumpers. It was an early form of bullying. We didn’t have a bank of second hand clothes like we do with uniform. In a uniform school, they might well have had holey uniform jumpers or torn uniform trousers. I wouldn’t know.
Now on non-uniform days (and these are primary I’m talking about) some children do notice who doesn’t have the ‘in’ brand of trainers, tops etc.
As an adult in the past, I noticed the children who had no socks, even in winter or disintegrating underwear, as PE was done in vest and pants or who were still wearing summer dresses in November.
Do children notice as much now? Well they didn’t notice xx had pulled his underpants off with his trousers and forgotten to put his PE shorts on, but they were only 5 years old. ( Yes I did notice and remedied it as quietly as I could!)

My two didn’t want new rugby shirts. Apparently the well washed slightly faded ones were much more desirable. I think it was to do with the best players having played more games for the school.

M0nica

Mollygo you would notice rich and poor children because you are an adult, but do the children?

I've already said I noticed when I was in primary school.