Give me a child until he is 7 . . .

It must be difficult at times. Daft example, but teachers can’t be expected to go along with it if parents tell their children that giraffes live underground and whales can fly. It’s not fair to the kids. It’s when things stray into belief territory that I worry.

Rosie51

Interesting thread Doodledog which I've just found.

NotSpaghetti thanks for that link. Of course, on the subject of climate change the vast majority will be going with the accepted science, and agreeing that climate change is being accelerated by human actions. I did though find the concerns of the climate change denier parents very troubling. They felt they had to tell their children to just go along with the teaching, parrot it back in course work or exams, and not express any form of dissent, for fear of repercussions. That's not a healthy lesson for a child to learn.

Yes, I felt that too. But I also found it interesting that the child seemed happy to keep two ideas in parallel and didn't find that stressful.

Mine were at a state primary. The teachers were (on the surface at least) not interested in pushing religion, but the Head was pretty fundamentalist and clearly saw it as her duty to get the children into church. They did learn about other religions though, and on the whole it was pretty balanced.

paddyann54

Ours were told that Santa was a good man who had lived a long time ago,he liked to make people happy .Now there are thousands of people who carry on his work and leaving presents is one way they do it .BUT not everyone gets the same amount of presents so dont rub your friends noses in it that you got a dolls house AND lots of other things .

Regarding religious schools ,in my opinion and experience theres no school that doesn't punt some religion .
At the convent I went to at least they were honest that the ethos was Catholic and that certain standards were to be expected .
When my children went to what my FIL insisted on calling a non denominational school and the rest of us called protestant there were weekly visits from a Ch of Scotland minister.That wasn't an issue because hes a family friend BUT it wasn't what we wanted and I knew nothing about the CH of Scotland .

I worked in a school that had once been closely linked with the village parish church. We did have services in the church usually about twice a year-Christmas and harvest festival. However Thursday was "Visitor's Assembly Day" and we had people from every religion and culture come in to talk to the children. Some of them were very interesting and informative. I don't think we punted any religion really.

Interesting thread Doodledog which I've just found.

NotSpaghetti thanks for that link. Of course, on the subject of climate change the vast majority will be going with the accepted science, and agreeing that climate change is being accelerated by human actions. I did though find the concerns of the climate change denier parents very troubling. They felt they had to tell their children to just go along with the teaching, parrot it back in course work or exams, and not express any form of dissent, for fear of repercussions. That's not a healthy lesson for a child to learn.

The vegan issue - if it arose, would be followed by discussions in class about different beliefs, points of view and unkindness to others. Harm done by spoken words and accusations lasts long into life.

The path of the discussions would depend on the age of the children.
I would be seriously concerned if I thought parents of primary children were teaching their children to use that vocabulary. Where would it stop?
Abortion? A parent of a child I teach has just lost her baby. The child is upset that they will no longer have a baby brother or sister. Would you allow children who may not understand the difference between miscarriage and abortion to parrot their parents’ views on abortion in class?
What would you do faced with children who are telling classmates from same sex marriages that their parents were evil or even just wrong?

Ours were told that Santa was a good man who had lived a long time ago,he liked to make people happy .Now there are thousands of people who carry on his work and leaving presents is one way they do it .BUT not everyone gets the same amount of presents so dont rub your friends noses in it that you got a dolls house AND lots of other things .

Regarding religious schools ,in my opinion and experience theres no school that doesn't punt some religion .
At the convent I went to at least they were honest that the ethos was Catholic and that certain standards were to be expected .
When my children went to what my FIL insisted on calling a non denominational school and the rest of us called protestant there were weekly visits from a Ch of Scotland minister.That wasn't an issue because hes a family friend BUT it wasn't what we wanted and I knew nothing about the CH of Scotland .

Some children get a wider view of the world at their own dinner table.
I have pretty strong views on lots of things that my children have been encouraged to question (and have in some cases totally gone the other way). I'm happy that i see them as thinking adults now and hope and believe they are creating the same open debate conditions with their families.

I was lucky as i had lots of time with my growing family.

I remember doing that . I wasn’t 100% sure, and my mum said that some people didn’t believe in him (which I knew) but that he only came to children who did believe. I regained my faith for another year or two, until my sister was old enough to know the truth too.

Most children at school tell me he is not real by KS2

Honestly I think a lot of the time they keep it up so they don't disappoint their parents and they don't want to risk less presents lol

Some of the examples on this thread are a bit ridiculous, as for the example of Father Christmas, it rather depends on the age of the children and the context doesn't it? One of the things studied in Literacy is myths and legends. If a child was to ask a question about FC in this context should a teacher lie and say he is real or admit he is a myth with some basis in a real person?

My mother was the prime influence on family principles but we live in military family quarters mainly, so discipline was pretty universal, as a child the rules were there you obeyed them.

I don’t recall teachers having influence over me beyond good behavior and manners (lacking today). Having given up trying to instill good behavior with pupils, are teachers attempting to correct the appalling standards set by some parents.

No, I don't remember that , but it's another good example. The teacher may well have done it because she believed that truth is important and her principles didn't allow her to lie; but if parents want to have Father Christmas for their children, they should be able to do so. I would have been furious.

Is that a question that teachers of primary children are often asked? I would imagine it probably is, so the teacher could have prepared a suitably vague answer , such as 'I haven't seen him, but someone left presents for me every Christmas when I was your age. Right! Can you all take out your reading books quietly, please?'

Remember the furore a year or two ago when a teacher told their young class that Father Christmas isn’t real?

VioletSky thank you for a measured account of what happens in schools and how teachers behave.
The quote is actually originally Aristotle.
No teacher would accept or encourage any child to berate, castigate or insult another child about that child's beliefs or lifestyle. It doesn't matter what the belief is. Just as a teacher wouldn't accept a Muslim child being called names they wouldn't accept a vegan child calling a meat eater "murderer". For one thing teachers are not some regulated body or drawn from a certain section of society, their beliefs and lifestyles are as varied as any of the children's.
Of course there are schools where some beliefs are taught that others disagree with. These are often religious schools and attending them is the parent's choice. It fits with their lifestyle and beliefs.
Would it be possible to introduce such schemes into every school in the country? Well first you'd have to indoctrinate all of the teachers.

Yes, that's the sort of thing I meant. It's a better example than the ham sandwich, as veganism can be explained as part of diversity. I know that young children can have very strong views about it though - I have a 6 year old vegan niece who is very vocal about my sister's leather sofas . I suspect that her mum (my sister's DIL) would have something to say if the little one came home with any sort of watered down version of vegan beliefs, although she'd probably be ok with a 'some people think' approach.

Yes so that's I think an example of what doodledog might have been getting at, the schools I am working in are doing something that is completely against Paddyanns beliefs/values. I am not saying one is right or wrong, but I think its naive to think there arent some clashes.

Galaxy my children weren't allowed to go and wave the Union flag when royals visited the area
.I thoroughly object to children being taken from school ,handed union flags and told to wave and cheer at people who I believe epitomise the inequality and class system thats a cancer on society .
I would be very angry if my GC get sent home with Lizzies jubilee book .There are better things to spend the budget on than royal propoganda

I believe the "give me a child until he's 7" quote mean s only that character and attitudes are learned by that age .
Its not some brainwashing device.
I went to a convent school and can honestly say I was never indoctrinated .By an early age though I knew right from wrong ,that calling children of different colour or faiths names was wrong and that I should show respect where it was warranted...now I believe respect must be earned .
I think we all know that anyway ,bigotry isn't something we're born with its taught .usually at home or by other children who are taught it at home .
If education can ,in a school environement ,make a difference then I'm all for it .

Deedaa

I can't remember being influenced in any way at my primary school, although I found most of it so traumatic that I may not have taken notice of any influence.

At my grammar school at the end of the 50s some of the teachers were pretty left wing. I can't imagine what my true blue parents would have thought if they knew the ideas I was picking up. Even our very straight laced headmistress (She seemed about 80 to us, but must have been younger than I am now) surprised us once we got to the fifth year. She took us for RE and instead of normal lessons we had discussion sessions about sex, abortion, euthanasia and other religions. I don't think any of that made it home to the parents either.

I think there should be discussions about issues such as sex, abortion, euthanasia and other religions - so long as they are genuine discussions and no particular views are allowed to dominate. Teachers need specialist training to lead those kind of discussions.

Ilovecheese

I am assuming thatVioletsky was talking about state school education. I wonder if "free schools" have to abide by the same curriculum .

I do remember the nun at my primary school sending the black children out on a couple of errands and then telling the rest of the class that using certain terms towards them (I am sure you can guess what) was not acceptable. That was perhaps the opposite to what the children were hearing at home.

No, they don't, but they are expected to teach "British values" - whatever they are. They're so vague that they can be interpreted in many different ways. Racist abuse is illegal in whatever context and should be called out.

I can't remember being influenced in any way at my primary school, although I found most of it so traumatic that I may not have taken notice of any influence.

At my grammar school at the end of the 50s some of the teachers were pretty left wing. I can't imagine what my true blue parents would have thought if they knew the ideas I was picking up. Even our very straight laced headmistress (She seemed about 80 to us, but must have been younger than I am now) surprised us once we got to the fifth year. She took us for RE and instead of normal lessons we had discussion sessions about sex, abortion, euthanasia and other religions. I don't think any of that made it home to the parents either.

Very interesting thread by the way Dooddledog

I am assuming thatVioletsky was talking about state school education. I wonder if "free schools" have to abide by the same curriculum .

I do remember the nun at my primary school sending the black children out on a couple of errands and then telling the rest of the class that using certain terms towards them (I am sure you can guess what) was not acceptable. That was perhaps the opposite to what the children were hearing at home.

It is an interesting issue. At my dd’s secondary school it was explicitly stated that teachers’ were not permitted to share their own personal political views with their pupils. On the other hand, it’s hard to say what is political and what isn’t. Times have moved on since then, too.

I think some teaching must be very poor, which is a worrying concern. Sometimes bad teaching is worse than no teaching. Two of my GC are mixed heritage. The 7yo has been learning about racism in school. He’s never before mentioned his heritage, even though the school is majority white, but he came home and asked his daddy if he was one of the goodies or the baddies.

One of my small GC was briefly ostracised by classmates because their parent worked for an oil and gas company, which according to the teaching in school is responsible for climate change and will kill everyone. (Never mind that many of the children’s parents roll up to school in gas-guzzling 4x4’s) An official complaint was made to the school about that.

Having said which, I think teachers have a very difficult job to do nowadays. Fifty years ago it was about learning to read & write and facts & figures but today they are expected to impart so much more, from relationships to how to manage money, and have a pastoral role far beyond anything imaginable in the 1960’s.