Why do British royal children not go to state schools like the Scandanavian royals?

How about making it a human right to give the parents of every child enough money to exercise their choice to send their offspring to private schools?

Germanshepherdsmum

Those who choose to send their children to independent schools are also funding the state system through taxes. I see no problem with having the right to choose, or deliberately making that choice mire difficult by taking away charitable status and imposing VAT. That would merely flood our already oversubscribed state schools with more children, and cruelly disrupt the lives of those children whose parents are currently managing school fees but could no longer do so.

No, it wouldn't. It's not difficult to provide more places. There are in total enough places. The problem is that pushy parents move heaven and hell to get their children into certain schools which are seen as more desirable, so they become oversubscribed.

Callistemon21

^Where have we seen any concrete facts to show this to be true? We only have one country as an example of what some want to be imposed on parents in this country. It appears all is not well with it^

I agree DaisyAnne, that is the fact, that there we only have one country as an example

In fact, that is not strictly true either as it is apparently a myth perpetuated on social media that private education is banned in Finland.

Mar 11, 2022, 14:17 PM
Since August 2020, more than 18,000 users have shared on social media claiming that private education in Finland is “forbidden” , “eliminated” or “abolished” . In September 2021, it circulated again, but it is false: Finland does have private schools. What is prohibited is basic education for profit.

Reetta Niinimäki, assistant attaché at the Finnish embassy in Spain, explained to AFP Factual: "Private education is not prohibited in Finland, but for-profit basic education is . "

There are private international schools in Helsinki and other centres, for ex-pat and Finnish children, tuition is free of charge in some.

I did think of checking if it was true Callistemon but decided life is too short; my time today certainly is.

That doesn't disabuse the fact that people were calling for what they believed to be true. A system where no private education was legally not allowed.

I would guess, and that is all it would be, that many independent schools are "not for profit" or could move to that status. I would question (and many do) if Academies are really "not for profit" or if they manipulate the law using high salaries, etc.

Mollygo

I don’t think private education is a basic human right, but I do support the right to make personal choices.
The fact that not everyone has sufficient money to make any basic needs choices worries me far more. The choice between heating or eating for example.

It keeps being parroted that those who support private education don’t care about state education, without any evidence to back that up, but hey ho, if I’m defending the right to choose, I must be defending the right to choose to parrot that too.

The issue of starvation, dying from the cold and having to use grossly underfunded schools is the same. The solution for all three is also the same. It is to do with tax, benefits and available income, not how we spend that money once we have a fair system.

Where have we seen any concrete facts to show this to be true? We only have one country as an example of what some want to be imposed on parents in this country. It appears all is not well with it

I agree DaisyAnne, that is the fact, that there we only have one country as an example

In fact, that is not strictly true either as it is apparently a myth perpetuated on social media that private education is banned in Finland.

Mar 11, 2022, 14:17 PM
Since August 2020, more than 18,000 users have shared on social media claiming that private education in Finland is “forbidden” , “eliminated” or “abolished” . In September 2021, it circulated again, but it is false: Finland does have private schools. What is prohibited is basic education for profit.

Reetta Niinimäki, assistant attaché at the Finnish embassy in Spain, explained to AFP Factual: "Private education is not prohibited in Finland, but for-profit basic education is . "

There are private international schools in Helsinki and other centres, for ex-pat and Finnish children, tuition is free of charge in some.

Galaxy

You are making some sweeping statement there daisyanne , I dont think I have mentioned outlawing (rather a dramatic phrase) private education. It is possible to discuss the impact that private schooling has on society without it being a culture war, the discussion of private education and its impact on the class system and our public institutions has been going on for ever, long before the dreaded culture war phrase. It reminds me a little of when people analysis male violence and its impact and that is seen as a persecution of men. I dont think abolishing private education would magically solve issues with the state system by the way.

Galaxy if posters say we have to close all privately run schools, that is outlawing them. What else could it be? Of course, it is possible to 'discuss the impact that private education has on society' but nowhere has that happened on this thread. I am not being dramatic; I am calling a spade a spade.

Finland has been the only example of the education system those arguing against private education have offered. Finland does not allow privately funded schools. Your post is yet another fallacious argument. A red herring design to say you have not lost the one being played out in this thread.

Those who choose to send their children to independent schools are also funding the state system through taxes. I see no problem with having the right to choose, or deliberately making that choice mire difficult by taking away charitable status and imposing VAT. That would merely flood our already oversubscribed state schools with more children, and cruelly disrupt the lives of those children whose parents are currently managing school fees but could no longer do so.

You are making some sweeping statement there daisyanne , I dont think I have mentioned outlawing (rather a dramatic phrase) private education. It is possible to discuss the impact that private schooling has on society without it being a culture war, the discussion of private education and its impact on the class system and our public institutions has been going on for ever, long before the dreaded culture war phrase. It reminds me a little of when people analysis male violence and its impact and that is seen as a persecution of men. I dont think abolishing private education would magically solve issues with the state system by the way.

Galaxy

Your analysis is completely inaccurate with regards to me if that's any help. Dh went to public school so no I dont see a them and us situation. I am beginning to think that the phrase 'culture war' is now just thrown around to mean I dont agree with you.

Is that a reply to my post Galaxy? Who knows but I am guessing it is. If so, I wonder why you think the post was about you or anyone else personally. My post was about the argument on offer. It is an argument that holds no water. It is simply unproven on this thread.

However, we can see how some argue against those who use the independent system. Some posters think it is okay to say that those who use a legally run private school system don't care about the education of all. Where have they proved that to be the case? It has been obvious from this thread that this is not true. They have inferred the reason why the state system is, in some areas, failing is because some choose differently. I could call the selection of a group to blame for the difficulties in a state-run area something far worse than a culture war.

We also have the name calling, the suggestion that we shouldn't have an independent system because the people who use it are "snobs". If you persecute people because of your opinion of why you think they behave as they do, that is a cultural attack. It is an unpleasant and invalid argument.

We haven't seen a valid argument on this thread.

If Galaxy, you truly believe that outlawing privately paid education (I assume that would include home-schooling) would automatically improve a system underfunded for decades, then please offer some proof. No one has yet.

I don’t think private education is a basic human right, but I do support the right to make personal choices.
The fact that not everyone has sufficient money to make any basic needs choices worries me far more. The choice between heating or eating for example.

It keeps being parroted that those who support private education don’t care about state education, without any evidence to back that up, but hey ho, if I’m defending the right to choose, I must be defending the right to choose to parrot that too.

Yes we could have afforded private education too. Dh parents went hungry whilst they put 2 children through private school on one average salary. I have no idea how they did it. The narrative of envying wealth isnt really accurate.

Joseanne ''I fully understand why this latter is an emotive topic, and if we have to repeat it on every page, yes, "every child deserves the best possible education." It's a basic human right.

It is also a basic human right to support private education, if one chooses to...''

again, you totally misinterpret what I am saying. Nowhere did I say private schools should be banned. And a good education for all is a human right, the choice to go private is just that ... a choice, and nothing more. I never said it should be taken away. What I have said, is that the country should make a clear political choice that a good education for all, in decent premises and with decent facilities, should be a top priority.

And many countries have made that choice, not banning private schools, but making state edu so good that very few feel they have to make the choice to go private. Same for healthcare.

As for the them and us- you did make me smile. Because I have all the things you have mentionned in your first paragraph. I have no issue with this- as long as people are prepared to pay their taxes, and put pressure on the system to provide excellent education and healthcare provisions for all. Simple, really.

But as Molly says, the saga will continue as posts will be distorted and misintepreted. But from me, last post on this thread.

It is also a basic human right to support private education.

Basic human rights are things like freedom from torture, freedom to start a family etc.

I suppose if you think supporting private education is a basic human right I shouldn't be surprised at anything else that is said. Basic human rights indeed. What rot. It just shows how skewed people's priorities are.

Lots of justification here about how private education is such a good thing. I know nobody will change their minds, but I just hope that you realise how patronising you all are to those of us who have money, can afford the nice things in life, but don't defend the unfair segregation of the good things this country could offer everyone, but think you should be able to buy them.

Or is the whole thing a joke thread now and those of us who believe in equality of opportunity are too po-faced to understand?

Thanks Joseanne, but the saga will be ongoing.

Whereas I agree that good education should be free to all, I also agree that parents should have the right to pay for education if they have the means to do, albeit this might be supplemented by scholarships or bursaries.*

Not all money is inherited, though I don’t regard that as a sin like some do. Others have to work hard and make sacrifices. However money is obtained, I strongly support freedom of choice for all, without condemnation. Some State Schools are excellent, some independent schools, not so much, I just can’t agree that anyone has the right to criticise others for the way they wish to spend their money.

*In 2021 the Good Schools Guide announced that bursaries and scholarships worth £938m were awarded in the previous year to 157,000 applicants, which equated to 30% of pupils in independent schools.

Joseanne totally agree with your post of 07.09.40,

Well said.

Brilliant post Joseanne... but it won’t stop ‘em!

Dh went to public school so no I dont see a them and us situation.
Same here Galaxy. Me a comprehensive too!
Except in our house it's a me and him situation everyday regarding who turned out the better!

There is some truth in DaisyAnne's final paragraph regarding "us" and "them" on GN. When I joined 3 years ago I quickly realised it was considered a crime by "some" to have money, to own a second home, to go on holidays, to buy nice clothes and of course, the worst act of all was to send one's children to private school.
I fully understand why this latter is an emotive topic, and if we have to repeat it on every page, yes, "every child deserves the best possible education." It's a basic human right.

It is also a basic human right to support private education, if one chooses to, without receiving ridicule and bitter recriminations. What is unfair on these threads and others, is how those with wealth, and who are fortunate enough to make choices, are automatically stripped of any humanity whilst ignoring how benevolent and generous they might be. Not just with their money, but as real people. The silly comments about how others don't care about some children receiving a poor education are completely misguided and untrue, but it suits the ongoing narrative.

Your analysis is completely inaccurate with regards to me if that's any help. Dh went to public school so no I dont see a them and us situation. I am beginning to think that the phrase 'culture war' is now just thrown around to mean I dont agree with you.

Callistemon21

Fleurpepper

It is very clear that in countries where all children go to State Schools, including those of influence and means- education is properly funded, with excellent staff and facilities. They also have less class conflicts, as children have grown up and been educated with a huge variety of children form very varied backgrounds.

Which countries - can you specify please?
Have you experience of living in these countries?

It would be interesting to have some facts re this.

I'm not sure it matters which country Callistemon; it's a spurious argument.

What Fleurpepper is implying, minus the hyperbole, is:

Properly funded education is only available when it is illegal for parents to send children to anything but a state school. Otherwise why ban independent schools?

Where have we seen any concrete facts to show this to be true? We only have one country as an example of what some want to be imposed on parents in this country. It appears all is not well with it. I can find articles saying that Finland's recent decline in international test scores has led many to question whether its education system is truly the best, and Critics argue that Finland's success came from earlier education models, not from headline-making features like late start times, lack of homework, and absence of test assessment. Even if it was true that Finland did provide what some have claimed it is not our county. We have a very different history and culture.

It seems very clear to me that this is yet another culture war. It is nothing to do with raising the education offer for all but everything to do with a small group on this thread, who may well see themselves as "us" wanting to deny the choices made by another group they seem to see as "other" or "them".

It is very clear that in countries where all children go to State Schools, including those of influence and means -

Fleurpepper stated countries.
I know about Finland but I wondered which other countries of influence and means she meant.

This is a very interesting point.

volver

Finland.

Would you like us to repeat it every page until it sinks in?

Oh, I know very well volver thank you ?

I do like Finland. Rather chilly in winter, though.

I should have realised that, on a forum such as this, we do not know people personally and don't know if they may not understand tongue-in-cheek posts and may in fact take every post literally.

Note to Self:
In real life we can avoid that but we should remember that on an open forum it is best to assume that there is always someone who will misunderstand and take offence.

Finland.

Would you like us to repeat it every page until it sinks in?