Why do British royal children not go to state schools like the Scandanavian royals?

And my point, again, is that, sadly, when those who have money, a voice and influence, have the opt out via their purse, to excellent alternatives, then it just is never a priority.
Very well put Fleurpepper. Back to my NCDS study, when we were interviewed in our early 30s (1990), the privately educated were earning 7% more than the state educated. By the same stage in life of the next cohort in 2000, the gap had risen dramatically to 21% in favour of the privately educated, so we can see where this is heading.

DaisyAnne yes, this is what many of us want. I imagine, the vast majority, including some of the 7% elite.

''I wish the state schools could be so good that no one needs to close independent schools because they would become redundant.''

So back to the OP, yes, and that would require a clear political choice, as in Skandinavian and other countries. And my point, again, is that, sadly, when those who have money, a voice and influence, have the opt out via their purse, to excellent alternatives, then it just is never a priority. The situation in the UK has very very long historical roots, 500 years and more, and is so so entrenched, and that makes changes very difficult to make.

I am working class and so are my family, rather bright actually and I don't know anyone at all who got a bursary and neither does anyone else I know. They are 'apparently' given to people's children whose parents know how to work the system and can afford the extra costs of uniform etc. I have been told this by people who use the local private schools, many of whom are friends.

I feel it is ok for me to post this as people seem to think working class people know how to work the benefits system and how to live off take outs instead of eating lentils.

Volver
'Life's too short to read all that rambling.
Maybe in the morning'.

I wonder if you could find time to answer questions posed to you in my post of 29.8.22 at 22.49? Yes, it's a bit long but I am interested to see your answers.

I think the bewildered one is you volver. Your quoted post was made today at one minute to four. (volver Thu 01-Sep-22 15:59:16) I didn't read it until later when I answered it, in a way of my own choosing, not one that danced to the extremists tune.

You are repeating yourself DaisyAnne.

And completely misunderstanding my post. It was ever thus.

You are fixated on something I posted several days ago and are going on and on about it.

volver

I find there is no valid argument that some pro-fee-paying-school posters will even countenance. When one of the arguments is that there won't be any bursaries available to give some children the educational benefit, then the argument cannot be won.

For me, that means that some of the poor folks deserve to get charity, and they only get it because the rich folks are so altruistic that they pay not only for their own children, but for the children of the deserving poor.

Now anybody is entitled to rage about me bending the truth, or misinterpreting others' posts as much as they like. But I, and others like me, don't want charity. We want a square go.

You have just set up an argument, with yourself then told yourself you don't agree. Why am I not surprised?

Of course, there is no valid argument for outlawing privately funded schools. We are a democracy, not a Communist state. However, if you were to concentrate on what we can achieve, i.e., the vast improvement of state education, you would find most people agree.

Not wanting charity does not mean abolishing independent schools. It does mean that we work towards getting an equal education for those in state schools.

When I retired 11 years ago my class sizes were 34 children, Junior, never less. The infants were 30 per class but once in the Junior department at least four were added per class; top sets frequently had 36 to allow for smaller lower sets.
Upthread Finland's successful education system was mentioned. I believe every teacher there has to train to MA level, and teachers are regarded with the respect accorded to lawyers and doctors. I don't know about class sizes, but if a child is falling behind they are taught by highly qualified and experienced teachers in very small groups or individually until they have a clear understanding.

Gov.UK 2022

There are probably fewer per class in private schools but the class sizes in state schools are nowhere near those which I remember years ago - 42+ in secondary school. I hope we never return to those days.
My early teaching was in primary classes of 38-40, in mixed year groups classes e.g. Reception-Y1, until the class size for KS1 was set at 30. When that happened it impacted overall on KS2 classes which, although there was no set limit, stabilised around 26-27 on average. For us, 30 per KS1 class meant 30 per class in KS2.

Callistemon21

^Anecdotally too, I know many teachers who just could not cope with teaching in state schools, due to huge class size^


"Average primary and secondary school class sizes have not changed"

"The average primary class size has remained the same at 26.6 in 2022, and the average secondary class size has also remained the same at 22.3. These represent a levelling off of recent trends".

Gov.UK 2022

There are probably fewer per class in private schools but the class sizes in state schools are nowhere near those which I remember years ago - 42+ in secondary school. I hope we never return to those days.

Not sure if you have hands on experience in teaching. Those numbers represent an average. Some SN and specialised classes have to be very small, and some classes have to be smaller for other reasons- which means that at the 'other hand' some classes have to be much larger. Most classes are organised to have a maximum of 30, but in reality, some are way above, requiring children to be 3 to a desk for 2.

I find there is no valid argument that some pro-fee-paying-school posters will even countenance. When one of the arguments is that there won't be any bursaries available to give some children the educational benefit, then the argument cannot be won.

For me, that means that some of the poor folks deserve to get charity, and they only get it because the rich folks are so altruistic that they pay not only for their own children, but for the children of the deserving poor.

Now anybody is entitled to rage about me bending the truth, or misinterpreting others' posts as much as they like. But I, and others like me, don't want charity. We want a square go.

MayBee70

If state schools were properly funded children wouldn’t be dependent on obtaining nurseries to get a good education though.

nurseries should be bursaries!

If state schools were properly funded children wouldn’t be dependent on obtaining nurseries to get a good education though.

Sorry, thus should be new paragraph, ......
If they ceased being charities a huge number of children on bursaries wouldn't receive that educational benefit. (Nothing to do with the kids receiving business rates benefits!)

I don't think you can take away charitable status and still keep operating, otherwise many independent schools would be happy to do this.
The actual benefit isn't very much - Realistically just business rates relief 80%. If they ceased being charities a huge number of children on bursaries wouldn't receive that benefit.
Raising VAT on school fees would be a fairly straightforward and quick piece of legislation, to start with.

?

I know I was careful to say England. ?

Mamie

The trouble is it isn't just "state schools" any more is it. My GDs (excellent) academy school belongs to a charity. I think about 80% of secondaries are now academies or free schools in England.

There are no academies in Wales. Nor Grammar schools.

We had the same sort of thing in our nearby larger town, Callistemon. At that time four out of the five Comprehensive schools were 'Outstanding'. The other one was 'Good' if I remember rightly. The two independent schools had to work very hard to fill their places. However, those Comprehensives are finding things very hard now. Schools anyone might have looked at, even if they were looking at the independent sector as well, are now really struggling. Sadly, a great deal of damage can be done in a decade.

The trouble is it isn't just "state schools" any more is it. My GDs (excellent) academy school belongs to a charity. I think about 80% of secondaries are now academies or free schools in England.

In the early pages of this discussion, it was clarified that only Finland, of the Nordic countries, bans private schools. It is successful with this by having very, very high standards in its schools. We would have to get at least partway there before we even think about banning part of our mixed education system. But why ban them? What does that achieve?

Nothing imo.

However, taking up your point, a friend of DH who teaches at an independent school remarked to him that a few years ago the number of applications for two local independent schools had dropped considerably one year. This coincided with the replacement of the old comprehensive school buildings in two local towns by modern buildings with good facilities. There may, of course, have been other reasons but he thought it was something worth noting.

However, it's not the buildings themselves which are as important as the staff, starting with the Head Teacher.

Mamie

DaisyAnne difficult to get the balance between understanding a child's circumstances and not allowing it to impact on your expectations of what they can achieve. Sorry if that was unclear.
I would much prefer a system where the expectation is that all children go to good state schools, but now is not the time for large scale change.
At the moment I am far more concerned about what this inept government is allowing to happen to schools, children and their families.

The only issue on this thread, when you get away from the nonsense, is whether closing independently funded schools will mean that you speed up all children going to good state schools. Like you, I do not believe now is the time to change the other schools available.

I wish the state schools could be so good that no one needs to close independent schools because they would become redundant. Then we have made progress from the times I have described when opening a charity school was the only means for some to get, not just a good education, but quite often the best available at the time.

Anecdotally too, I know many teachers who just could not cope with teaching in state schools, due to huge class size



"Average primary and secondary school class sizes have not changed"

"The average primary class size has remained the same at 26.6 in 2022, and the average secondary class size has also remained the same at 22.3. These represent a levelling off of recent trends".

Gov.UK 2022

There are probably fewer per class in private schools but the class sizes in state schools are nowhere near those which I remember years ago - 42+ in secondary school. I hope we never return to those days.

Fleurpepper

DaisyAnne

Mamie

It is difficult isn't it. I have worked with teachers and teaching assistants who have provided breakfast and taken clothes home to wash. I think most of us have stayed awake worrying about our pupils.
In the end good teachers understand that knowing pupils and understanding their troubles is important, but our focus should always be on raising standards and helping them make good progress. That balance is sometimes hard.
I think the current situation is terrifying. I am hearing from friends about appalling bills for their schools and a massive level of cuts. Why on earth are schools excluded from the energy cap?

It isn't difficult, but neither should it be personal. Closing independent schools, particularly at this point, will do nothing.

Getting this far-right, 'you only get what you pay for directly' government out, is the only answer. Those who have chosen to make this a personal battle are doing more harm than sending a child to a private school ever did. The only way to stop the stripping out of funding and facilities from schools is to change the government. Whatever schools a person or their children use is irrelevant.

Closing independent schools would be very difficult, as the system is so entrenched, and as the state sector is seriously lacking in space and places.

However, as pointed out in the OP, in Skandinavian and some other countries- it is a political, as well as social and educational CHOICE, to make great education for all a priority. This had huge repercussion on society at large, the poverty and crime rate, etc.

It is clear that when the politicians, top rate business people, professionals - all those with influence and a voice- use the public system and do not have an opt-out, they make sure the system is properly funded, with excellent staff, equipment and facilities.

I do believe the first thing to do is to cancel the Charity Status loophole. And of course to make good education for all a priority.

I doubt there is an argument in what you say Fleurpepper as "where there's a will there's a way" when it comes to your own children.

However, even if there is an argument, now is not the time to pursue it. The only way to improve schools is by funding them, not just adequately, but to make up for what has happened under the Tories.

In the early pages of this discussion, it was clarified that only Finland, of the Nordic countries, bans private schools. It is successful with this by having very, very high standards in its schools. We would have to get at least partway there before we even think about banning part of our mixed education system. But why ban them? What does that achieve?

Charity status needs proper consideration. Manchester Warehousemen and Clerks Orphan's School decided, in 1862, to pay for the orphans education by opening the school to fee paying boarders and day-pupils. It still does this. The school was started by the same group of men who brought us the start of our modern "weekend". Perhaps times have moved on but it really doesn't look like it to me. When we provide properly for those whose household income has disappeared then maybe I could agree that the day of the charity driven private school is over.

I totally agree with you Fleurpepper.