We have pooled thoughts on the NHS, how about education?

growstuff

I know education in Scotland is devolved.

rinob I was curious to know how you could claim that somebody was "at the top of the pecking order being related to me!" This person obviously wasn't at the top of the pecking order. AFAIK universities don't produce a list of people who nearly made it or some kind of ranked list. They don't even give a reason for rejection.

The Scottish government gives universities a certain amount for domiciled Scottish students, so the numbers are capped. It doesn't matter how many English and foreign students the universities take. They're not replacing Scottish students, but the universities can't afford to take them, unless the Scottish government increases the budget and lowers admissions criteria.

Is there a UCAS type of admission system? Is it by grades only- or as in England by Tutor/teacher report and student presentation, and possible interview.

ronib

Scottish students forced to attend universities not in Scotland are liable to pay tuition fees which apply to that course.

Scottish students are eligible to apply for a loan I think in the normal way.

Completely foreign students are required to pay even higher fees for Scottish university courses than English, Welsh or N. Irish students

This conversation has been totaly derailed from the original, which had nothing to do with Scotland.

But since we are here.

Your above statement misses an 'in between' - what about those with Scottish parents who lived abroad for many years, or born abroad, who return to Scotland to go to University., whilst their parents are still resident abroad. How do they manage that?
I know of several cases.

Assuming the present Scottish administration understands social inequality and wants to improve it?
Probably wrong assumption?

It was my idea of a joke…. Actually what I meant was that this second cousin is very able academically and went on to get a first at an English university.

I am sorry for the continued social inequality bias generated by the Scottish government. It’s no skin off my nose though and it’s for your government to resolve.

ronib (sorry)

I know education in Scotland is devolved.

rinob I was curious to know how you could claim that somebody was "at the top of the pecking order being related to me!" This person obviously wasn't at the top of the pecking order. AFAIK universities don't produce a list of people who nearly made it or some kind of ranked list. They don't even give a reason for rejection.

The Scottish government gives universities a certain amount for domiciled Scottish students, so the numbers are capped. It doesn't matter how many English and foreign students the universities take. They're not replacing Scottish students, but the universities can't afford to take them, unless the Scottish government increases the budget and lowers admissions criteria.

Education in Scotland is a devolved power since 1998.

I am not paying for it…. The students in Scotland are being sold short.

Nope. No list. Situation explained to me by a very disillusioned grandmother ex teacher. I was very surprised then and even more surprised now when I looked into the stated government policy.

Yes I know admissions don’t work like that as it’s clear that this is not an admissions policy but one of rejection.,

ronib

volver

What was it about this person that made them unsuitable for a Scottish University but welcomed with open arms to the English one?

State education, very high grades ? Very talented . No courses were available as places had been given to foreign students.

Admissions don't work like that.

ronib

volver

Actually, a thought...

Were all the places at all the universities that this person was expecting to get, all "given" to foreign students? Or were there actually Scottish students who were further up the pecking order than they were?

She was at the top of the pecking order being related to me!
I have no idea exactly how this situation came about but it’s a very poor situation for Scotland!

How do you know? Were you given some kind of list?

ronib

What I would rather is a widening of social opportunities instead of a reduction in social mobility.

My brief look at Scottish higher education doesn’t agree with your assessment. Interestingly vice chancellors here threw out a government proposal to cap numbers on student places apart from medicine.

In fact, the chasm between very rich and very poor seems to have widened in recent years which is regrettable.

The capping of university places is the price you pay for no student fees. The opposite is true in many English universities.

I hear you, Joseanne.

Callistemon21

Joseanne

My comments are obviously of no interest on this thread so I shall leave it now.
There's no point two of us making life difficult

Your comments are as valid and interesting as anyone else's, Joseanne, perhaps even more so as having one-dimensional threads dominated by all the same views would be very boring indeed.

Don't be put off by rude posters.

Thank you, and others who were keen to listen to the point of view of someone who knows how the independent sector operates.

volver

I'm glad you rate Scotland, thank you.

Not everybody in Scotland is allowed to be a student in Scotland? That's because we don't have a magic money tree.

MaisieD is the person to ask

I'm glad you rate Scotland, thank you.

Not everybody in Scotland is allowed to be a student in Scotland? That's because we don't have a magic money tree.

volver

^What I would rather is a widening of social opportunities instead of a reduction in social mobility.^
So would I. Obviously.

My brief look at Scottish higher education doesn’t agree with your assessment. Interestingly vice chancellors here threw out a government proposal to cap numbers on student places apart from medicine.
Where's "here"?

In fact, the chasm between very rich and very poor seems to have widened in recent years which is regrettable. Yes it is. Which is why I don't think its a very good idea to charge people for one of the ways they can get out of poverty.

Here is England. Land of …..
But … your government is not allowing all Scottish students to study in Scotland.
You might not realise this but I really rate Scotland.

What I would rather is a widening of social opportunities instead of a reduction in social mobility.
So would I. Obviously.

My brief look at Scottish higher education doesn’t agree with your assessment. Interestingly vice chancellors here threw out a government proposal to cap numbers on student places apart from medicine.
Where's "here"?

In fact, the chasm between very rich and very poor seems to have widened in recent years which is regrettable. Yes it is. Which is why I don't think its a very good idea to charge people for one of the ways they can get out of poverty.

What I would rather is a widening of social opportunities instead of a reduction in social mobility.

My brief look at Scottish higher education doesn’t agree with your assessment. Interestingly vice chancellors here threw out a government proposal to cap numbers on student places apart from medicine.

In fact, the chasm between very rich and very poor seems to have widened in recent years which is regrettable.

No. Just the two years of University level maths, then a degree in physical sciences. And a career which involved building business cases and deciding how best to raise and spend the money for maximum benefit.

Also no - there is no cap on the numbers of Scottish students. There is a cap on how much money the government can spend on tertiary education. Maybe you'd rather there was free for all and we worry about the funding later?

Volver just wondering did you do any formal logic as part of your Stone Age experience?

The Scottish higher education system operates a cap on the number of Scottish students allowed on any particular degree course.

ronib

Volver you have a strange concept of deserving. You have failed to understand the inherent injustice and failure of the Scottish government to educate its own students. 100k plus places allocated to non Scots. What do you not understand?

There were 3,000 students at my alma mater back in the Stone Age when I was a student. Now there are 15,000. So lets assume that the proportion of Scots to non-Scots is the same for that Uni as it is for the whole country. That would mean that 6,400 students there are Scots. So even if all 3,000 students back then were Scots - and I assure you they were not - then at last twice as many Scots are getting the benefit of a University education there than there used to be.

So, they have to be paid for somehow. Charge tuition fees? Against the Scottish principles of education. The Government pays? Definitely, the best option. Raise some of the money by charging "foreigners". Sounds fair enough to me.

Lots of people used not to get the education they wanted to get in Scotland, and many people could have benefitted from it. That number is smaller now. Those who I know who missed out back then didn't complain about the "foreigners" getting their opportunities.

As has been pointed out to me, it doesn’t matter at all if a commentator on social media is deliberately hostile or antagonistic because other people will have access to both sides of the argument and you are really talking to them. Truth will out.