We have pooled thoughts on the NHS, how about education?

Callistemon21

^Then why so many private schools that prevent that happening?^

In what way, exactly, do private schools prevent the availability of free education?

I'm not going to start this argument from scratch again...

Maybe somebody else has the stamina to do it.

Volver Dear, all choices made on the basis of money benefit the user who has the money.
I believe all state education should provide good education for all children in the system. Where it doesn’t, then the aim should be to improve it.
Removing the choice to opt for private education wouldn’t improve things for state schools.
Parents with money would still choose ‘the best schools’ in ‘the best areas’ and by doing that would make those schools seem more attractive to those with more money. Parental choice of schools doesn’t work for many parents as I know from experience.
You’re quite right about the other choices not being as important as education-except perhaps healthcare, but the same fact, that removing choice to opt for something on the basis that you can afford it, provides no benefit to those who can’t afford it. Same as buying an electric car because you can afford it, doesn’t benefit those who can’t.
Re education in Scotland -apart from Edinburgh, because we mustn’t count Edinburgh, are all educational establishments the same and equal in provision?

Yeah, I thought about that,,,

You get a place at a Scottish University if you "get the grades", so to speak.

You can't blame the Scottish Parliament for the fact that the UK Parliament has decided to charge for places south of the border.

So when you say a "lack", maybe you could elaborate where that perception comes from?

Higher Education Student Statistics UK 2020-21 show:

16.7% of Scottish domiciled full time first degree entrants to Scottish HEIs are from the 20% most deprived areas in Scotland. This is an increase of 0.3 percentage points, or 545 entrants, from 16.4% in 2019-20. A record number of students enrolled at Scottish HEIs in 2020-21: an increase from last year of 8.6% (+22,385) to 282,875.
StudentNumberChange
Scottish domiciled 180,170 (+7.9%, +13,120 since 2019-20)

www.universities-scotland.ac.uk/record-breaking-widening-access-success-highlighted-in-new-figures/

Then why so many private schools that prevent that happening?

In what way, exactly, do private schools prevent the availability of free education?

volver

Truth hurts.

"Hoist on your own petard", as the bard might say.

Dinna forget to pursue the Scottish Parliament over lack of free university places for Scottish undergraduates….

Then why so many private schools that prevent that happening?

Twice as many private places per head of population as in Scotland. (Except in Edinburgh, which is a real outlier)

It's a basic belief, at least where I come from, that education should be free and available to those who would benefit from it.
It is in Wales, and England too I believe.

Joseanne

My comments are obviously of no interest on this thread so I shall leave it now.
There's no point two of us making life difficult

Your comments are as valid and interesting as anyone else's, Joseanne, perhaps even more so as having one-dimensional threads dominated by all the same views would be very boring indeed.

Don't be put off by rude posters.

Truth hurts.

"Hoist on your own petard", as the bard might say.

My comments are obviously of no interest on this thread so I shall leave it now.
There's no point two of us making life difficult

Joseanne

foxie48 I think there have been several studies which suggest that maybe the best way to improve the performance of disadvantaged children is to put them in a school with advantaged children. Thereby giving a spread of ability and background. Haven’t there been a few tv experimental programmes doing just this? The disadvantaged children then perform much better, standards are raised, and any detriment to the advantaged is very small.

You mean like...you mean like.. all children should go to the same school, irrespective of how much money their parents have?

Well fancy that.

I'm going to shout. Apologies in advance.

parents without larger incomes would struggle to provide the additional expenses at a private school even if they could afford the actual fees.

THAT'S THE POINT. 🤦🏼

foxie48 I think there have been several studies which suggest that maybe the best way to improve the performance of disadvantaged children is to put them in a school with advantaged children. Thereby giving a spread of ability and background. Haven’t there been a few tv experimental programmes doing just this? The disadvantaged children then perform much better, standards are raised, and any detriment to the advantaged is very small.

volver

Joseanne

No, I mean in terms of the type of parental support available to the child in terms of value added (on top of an academic education). The school indirectly benefits, not necessarily in a financial way, although that also helps of course.

So parents without larger incomes can't provide parental support, by your definition.

Painting yourself into a corner, I think.

It depends what support one means volver. Yes, parents without larger incomes would struggle to provide the additional expenses at a private school even if they could afford the actual fees.
I think Fleurpepper has grasped my meaning.

So how do you help those "bright" but "poor" children?

Get them to move to Scotland and go to the kind of state school I went to. (1300 pupils, most socially deprived area of the county, clever pupils encouraged, no daft initiatives based on what amounts to charity.)

volver

those "very bright" children not only get an excellent academic education they also benefit from all the additional advantages that wealth brings.

🤦🏼

While the bright but poor ones best just give up now and know their place.

Indeed and that is what makes increasing social mobility so tricky, it's not just income and ability but it's also the cultural capitol that children bring with them to school. I'm from a working class background but I've married into an upper middle class background, spending Christmas with the family is like visiting a foreign land when compared with my own upbringing., fortunately I've had 40 years of practice. IMO the only way to increase social mobility is to have more people from WC backgrounds in position of power (not just politics either). I do take a crumb of comfort though from looking at my OH's nephews and nieces, despite their extremely privileged upbringing and education, three vote labour and although one is Conservtive he's very much centerist. Then I meet some of my MIL's friends and despair! So how do you help those "bright" but "poor" children? I've little evidence that G&T funding really helps much, the Sutton Report suggests that the assisted place scheme did aid social mobility but that no longer exists and bursaries given out by Independent schools tend to help the middle classes. What about totally free places in Independent schools to the value of a certain % of the benefit a school receives in return for retaining their charity status? These places would be strictly aimed at the poorest children and the £ funding saved by the ESFA goes towards supporting children with SEND requirements.

Mollygo

People make personal choices based on income.
Whether it’s choice of schools, electric (just buy one) cars, holidays, electronic devices for posting on GN or dining out at ridiculous prices in restaurants instead of the local 2 for £10 places.
Private schools welcome parents with higher incomes because they pay for running costs, heating, staffing, cleaning, equipment etc.
I’ve yet to learn how stopping people having any of those choices would benefit people without the money to make the same choices. Even, if I’ve read correctly, stopping charitable status for private schools, would not mean pouring of more money into state education.

As I've said before, buying a nice holiday that's over in a fortnight doesn't really compare with buying an education and a start in life that is not available to someone whose parents have a lower income.

It's a basic belief, at least where I come from, that education should be free and available to those who would benefit from it. So any self-justifying excuses about how limiting certain types of education to people with more money is actually good for everybody, just don't stand up.

Joseanne

No, I mean in terms of the type of parental support available to the child in terms of value added (on top of an academic education). The school indirectly benefits, not necessarily in a financial way, although that also helps of course.

So parents without larger incomes can't provide parental support, by your definition.

Painting yourself into a corner, I think.

People make personal choices based on income.
Whether it’s choice of schools, electric (just buy one) cars, holidays, electronic devices for posting on GN or dining out at ridiculous prices in restaurants instead of the local 2 for £10 places.
Private schools welcome parents with higher incomes because they pay for running costs, heating, staffing, cleaning, equipment etc.
I’ve yet to learn how stopping people having any of those choices would benefit people without the money to make the same choices. Even, if I’ve read correctly, stopping charitable status for private schools, would not mean pouring of more money into state education.

volver

those "very bright" children not only get an excellent academic education they also benefit from all the additional advantages that wealth brings.

🤦🏼

While the bright but poor ones best just give up now and know their place.

I know of two individuals who came from poor families and were given scholarships to academic day schools. One went on to Oxford and became an unhappy lawyer and rich. The other has a doctorate and now works for a housing association on adequate pay and is happy.
Also two more boys from professional families with scholarships and both now working as teachers having experienced Oxford and Cambridge.

I don’t know much about the outcome of state schools such as The Brompton Oratory but Tony Blair ex Fettes sent his children there. Probably Blair jr is richer than said lawyer quoted above?

Joseanne- this is a personal question, so of course you can just ignore.

What is your relationship with private schools or a specific private school? Do you teach in one, or married to one who is?

Yes, you are right- Many children who go to State schools are very privileged compared to many. They have parents who have extensive knowledge of many subjects (in our case, sciences for OH, and Humanities/languages for me), own computer, books all over the place, quiet place to study, and many experiences beyond education per se, music, sport, travel, and so much more. That is already very 'unfair' in so many ways, but RL.

No, I mean in terms of the type of parental support available to the child in terms of value added (on top of an academic education). The school indirectly benefits, not necessarily in a financial way, although that also helps of course.

Can you tell me Joseanne, how the private schools give themselves an advantage by selecting on income? What is it about a parent having a high income that a school might benefit from?

Bigger swimming pool?

those "very bright" children not only get an excellent academic education they also benefit from all the additional advantages that wealth brings.

🤦🏼

While the bright but poor ones best just give up now and know their place.

Could it be that the majority of private schools give themselves a double advantage by selecting on both income and ability? If that is the case, bringing all state schools up to the standards of the private sector would seem unachievable.