We have pooled thoughts on the NHS, how about education?

Chardy, do you not think I tried speaking to the schools concerned? Where there were learning difficulties I was in and out like the Hokey Cokey. I made it clear that I supported them all the way through but often felt I didn't get the same in return. In the school where there were behavioural difficulties, initially the class was changed because "it was a boisterous class" and when that was exactly the same, we made an appointment with the Head. The upshot was that the Head was aware there were difficulties but his hands were tied because of the large number of children who were placed there because of their difficulties. I could see that there was no way that things were going to change and wasn't prepared to see a happy go lucky, keen and conscientious child turned off of education. Interesting several other parents withdrew their children too; none of the children from his excellent primary school stayed longer than 2 terms.

because the nearest state school is not a good one, or even a safe one. If you all haven't heard of chairs being thrown, lucky you.

What about the pupils who have engaged parents and who want to learn, but the parents don't have any money? Tough luck? Nobody I know fled to fee paying schools. But then I'm in Scotland, where we seem to have retained a modicum of social democracy.

Chardy
Ofsted used to run parents' feedback evenings before the inspection to find out about these kinds of parental worries
They still ask for parent feedback, but it’s done on line now.
Matters raised are followed up, including enquiries into whether the points raised have been reported within the school or to the governors and what follow up has taken place.

This is a problem for all parents. A lot of parents send their children to religious schools because they want them in that environment. Some parents send their children to religious schools or other private schools (which are usually much more expensive in the USA), because the nearest state school is not a good one, or even a safe one. If you all haven't heard of chairs being thrown, lucky you. The inmates have taken over the asylum in many of our public schools here. That's partially because their parents have not raised them well, don't care about their progress, don't come to student-teacher meetings, etc., or flat out set a bad example themselves. More and more people have come to expect that their children be provided with school supplies from charitable organizations and free meals. As a matter of fact, in our country, many public schools stay open all summer long to provide food for children because they don't think they will get food at home. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I would say when small, private attempts are made to help a child or a family, that is a good thing. When it becomes public policy to just sign everybody up for free this and free that, then you are training people to expect that. Teachers in this country spend a good deal of money that they earn providing things for the classroom that should be paid for by the school. Frankly, I think there's too much of candy cane week and second set of pictures and campaign for the environment, etc. School needs to go back to the basics, and stop trying to give every experience in the world to every child in the classroom. It's not possible, and all it winds up doing is diluting the experience and knowledge that the student is supposed to be getting. Even my granddaughter, who went to private Catholic School, had to participate in learning a section of Braille. I told the teacher I thought that was ridiculous. There's a time and a place for that further on in education, but when you have a child who is struggling to learn to read in the first grade, that's where the emphasis should be. Add to that all the gender and pronoun nonsense and overtly political agenda that a lot of our public schools have, and it's no wonder people flee to the closest private school they can afford.

I have one DS who struggled in school, but I wouldn't have put him in a private school even if I could have afforded it, he would have hated it. He is dyslexic but with help and encouragement eventually found his place and succeeded, has a BA and an MA. I

Its no mystery to me why some people can work as teachers in state schools and send their children to private schools.

If you feel that your children are not getting waht they need at the state school you teach at, and you have the funds to send your child to fee paying school, then you will. If you don't have the funds, well "tough luck", seems to be the situation.

It's like people who don't approve of private healthcare but have to pay for their cataract operations before they go blind. Or those who protest about lack of climate change measures but have the gas central heating on in the winter because there is no alternative.

We have to live with the society we have. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be trying to change it to make it fair for everybody, irrespective of how much money their family can raise.

icanhandthemback

*Chardy*, I removed my son and put him into private education because of the behaviour in the class room, including chair throwing, the teacher being assaulted, etc. I had 5 children who went through the State System before but the degradation of behaviour was noticeable over the years. The fifth child stayed in the "best school" in the area because we couldn't afford to do anything different but he regularly saw bad behaviour because the rules had changed on entry requirements and the most challenging pupils were now admitted; the school had no idea how to handle them because they weren't used to such problems.
We also looked at private tutoring to make up for the hours my 6th child missed waiting for the children to settle so work could be set or the lesson to begin. However, when we thought about it, we felt that it was unfair to cut into his recreational time just because the schools could not get their act together or take control. As a teacher I don't blame fellow teachers, I blame the system but didn't see why a conscientious, intelligent child should sit watching chaos take over his lessons. I also didn't just take his word for it, I got him to capture the audio in several lessons. It was shocking.

If there is bad behaviour in a secondary school lesson eg English, then the head of English should be informed, and the parent demand to know what is bring done about it. The head of year should know what's going on in classes, the deputy head with responsibility for English is the chain of command. If no satisfaction is gained that way, LA schools have governors, academies may have a slightly different system.
Ofsted used to run parents' feedback evenings before the inspection to find out about these kinds of parental worries.
As for taking 'most challenging pupils', if it was a comprehensive when the older children were there, I don't understand where did these awkward pupils come from?

I hesitate to post as a significant number of posts relate to issues which are specific to or mainly apply in England and I live in Scotland.
I think the Scottish Government in recent years has very much prioritised education.
£1.8 billion was provided to build or refurbish 117 schools (completed April 2021).
We do have some private schools ( which educate around 4% of pupils I think).
There is huge emphasis on closing the attainment gap between those from least and most deprived areas and reducing inequity. This has had some success, although the pandemic set things back somewhat and specific plans have been put in place to address this.
We do not have the Academy system and I don't think there would be any support for such a system here. From various articles I have read, it certainly does not appear to reduce inequality and has led to serious issues in some places. ( I admit to a lack of detailed knowledge in this area).
For many years, Scotland has been aiming to give parity of status to vocational qualifications and encourage apprenticeships and school/college/employer collaboration. New Advanced awards have just been devised allowing more flexible routes to degrees and qualifications relevant to the workplace.
University education is also free here.
There are many positives but also many challenges.
I would probably advocate the removal of charitable status for private schools.
I'm certainly much more left -wing these days. I think equality of opportunity should be the aim, with excellent extra support where required ( hard to achieve I know) - whether it be for young carers, those with ADHD, dyslexia or anything else which could be a barrier to a learner achieving their potential.
I can't, in general,argue against those with the means being able to spend it as they see fit. I do, however, strongly believe that regulations should be in place to prevent this freedom negatively impacting others - such as making it almost impossible for people to buy a house in their home town due to the number of second or holiday homes in the area.
I believe, more fundamentally, that there is something wrong with a society which willingly and knowingly allows (encourages?) owners or managers in businesses , banking, public services, politics, charities to earn 10-100 times the wages of the organisation's lowest paid employees. These owners/ managers are not worth that much more and have usually ( probably always) done nothing to genuinely "merit" such wealth. I'm slightly averse to the term "hard-earned money" when it seems to be being applied specifically to the very wealthy. I'm absolutely sure cleaners, carers, shop assistants, .. all work every bit as hard and often have to do so while facing more of the challenges which can accompany living on a low wage. I know it's not realistic to think we can pay everyone the same or give everyone identical housing etc, but the gap is growing and immoral.
Enough from me now. I know I've digressed ( only slightly in reality)

Anniel

I see that LSE educates bright people who want to become Labour politicians. It failed with me. I never knew any any aspiring Labour MPs there. My younger son did post grad at Oxford on a scholarship and he does recall future Tory MPx so I guess that statement was half right. I went to a grammar school in Liverpool in 1945 which was when the scholarship exam was open to poor, working class children like me. I remain grateful for that to Labour politicians. Many politicians got their feet on the ladder of a great education by going to grammar schools and yet they got rid of them. Even Margaret Thatcher wanted them gone. I must confess I never understood why bright working class children were thus denied the best education they could have.

Do all the well educated women here work out how much extra tax money is needed to cure the ills of all the social services we need? The NHS is not the best service in the world and some European services and those in Australia could point us to a better model. My own observation as a teacher was that a minority of parents had no real interest in their childrens education and that bad behaviour was sometimes ignored by weak heads. I quite understand why many capable candidates do not go into teaching because they fear having to control children with behavioural problems. We are not all Katherine Birbalsingh who runs the Michaela Community School, which has long waiting lists. But learning self discipline is important for children and those students who are badly behaved need to learn that such behaviour will not be tolerated. I have really enjoyed reading this thread which shows a real depth of knowledge and interest. Thank you all.

Ralph Miliband sociologist LSE
I think David Miliband and Ed are his sons. Marxist theoretician

Fleurpepper

'How can you teach in a state school but send your kids to a private one??? Beyond me, make your mind up!!!'

this has always puzzled me. I had several colleagues in the past who did this, some Deputy Heads and Heads too.

Yes, Joseanne- a much easier job, much longer holidays, subsidies in so many forms, and often a free house too.

Yes, to some extent teachers in the independent sector do have an easier job in terms of discipline and of course smaller classes, but this also means they actually have to prepare heaps of extended work because they cover more ground more quickly and include activities with lots of differentiation. Longer holidays, yes. Free accommodation occasionally, but not in expensive cities like London.
And not to be underestimated are the demands of parents who often expect the earth!

volver

Every day I thank my lucky stars that I'm not Katherine Birbalsingh.

And I do too

I have really enjoyed reading this thread which shows a real depth of knowledge and interest.
Ditto.
For those who work in both the private and state sector it has been informative to learn about different practices and administrative procedures from those who know.
I'm pleased that the discussion moved away from the usual references to toffs to discuss more meaningful issues.

'How can you teach in a state school but send your kids to a private one??? Beyond me, make your mind up!!!'

this has always puzzled me. I had several colleagues in the past who did this, some Deputy Heads and Heads too.

Yes, Joseanne- a much easier job, much longer holidays, subsidies in so many forms, and often a free house too.

I hadn’t realised before joining Gransnet how petty minded, conformist and down right unpleasant some teachers can be.

It’s unfortunate if you have children or grandchildren with special needs or at the really bright end of the spectrum. Some state schools will be well placed to educate a broad range and others will not. Parents have the ultimate responsibility to care and nurture their children with the cooperation of teachers, surely?

How can you teach in a state school but send your kids to a private one??? Beyond me, make your mind up!!!
I'm not sure what you mean. Does that happen much?
In my experience it isn't a common occurrence. Most private schools offer their teachers fairly generous discounts for their own children and can also provide free trips for their children if the teacher parent is accompanying.

I think of the biggest issues is the integration of SEND children into mainstream without the funding to provide adequate support. Let me be absolutely clear, I am fully supportive of integration but all too often the children's needs are not properly met and sometimes it also means the needs of other children in the class are not met either. We are trying to do it all on the cheap.

Speaking as a retired school-teacher, it would help us to educate children better if parents would take more responsibility for bringing up their children.

This ^. My children were all well behaved in school with the exception of one who had learning difficulties and is now being assessed for ADHD. At home he responded well to praise as well as a firm hand in discipline. In school the only thing they complained about is his avoidance of work (common with ADHD kids), him impulsiveness and blurting out. Because he had no problems with reading, spelling and numeracy there was no help available at all.

Attempts to discuss a child's disruptive behaviour, apparent learning disabilities, need for glasses etc. are frequently dismissed ...

The amount of times a parent wouldn't allow a referral to an Educational Psychologist was amazing. They didn't want a label or an appointment with shrink! I think schools should have the power to insist that a child is seen by an EP because unless these children are helped properly, it blights their lives.
.
Obviously, better funding might solve some problems, but only if it enabled schools to employ twice as many teachers to reduce the amount of children in each class.

At least let's reduce the class sizes of children who are struggling. When a child has one to one needs, it should be available as per the EHCP. We are lucky, that happens for our grandchild but many schools don't have the funding for this.

So teachers' training colleges need to teach how to combine a sound education with the exciting adventure mastering skills and amassing knowledge should be.

Yes.

Schools also must return to teaching subjects like woodworking, art, sewing and music properly to give children who are not "bookish" a chance to be top of the class in subjects that are not predominantly learned from books.

I think children who are not academic should learn life skills through some of these subjects. We can't all be Professors.

Great post grandtanteJE65.

I taught for 36 years in junior, middle and secondary schools, all state run. Never saw chairs thrown, got told to f ... off a couple of times but then received an apology.
The problems with state education are created by state persistent interference. Free schools, academies, national curriculum, evidence based learning, red pen , green pens for marking etc, too many changes, too many times so you could not get on with the job you were trained to do. We need a period of calm, stability, less demands so teachers remain in post, a curriculum fit for purpose so children feel loved, respected and nurtured. Plus children need to start school later, look at Finland and it’s well balanced approach.
How can you teach in a state school but send your kids to a private one??? Beyond me, make your mind up!!!

Every day I thank my lucky stars that I'm not Katherine Birbalsingh.

I see that LSE educates bright people who want to become Labour politicians. It failed with me. I never knew any any aspiring Labour MPs there. My younger son did post grad at Oxford on a scholarship and he does recall future Tory MPx so I guess that statement was half right. I went to a grammar school in Liverpool in 1945 which was when the scholarship exam was open to poor, working class children like me. I remain grateful for that to Labour politicians. Many politicians got their feet on the ladder of a great education by going to grammar schools and yet they got rid of them. Even Margaret Thatcher wanted them gone. I must confess I never understood why bright working class children were thus denied the best education they could have.

Do all the well educated women here work out how much extra tax money is needed to cure the ills of all the social services we need? The NHS is not the best service in the world and some European services and those in Australia could point us to a better model. My own observation as a teacher was that a minority of parents had no real interest in their childrens education and that bad behaviour was sometimes ignored by weak heads. I quite understand why many capable candidates do not go into teaching because they fear having to control children with behavioural problems. We are not all Katherine Birbalsingh who runs the Michaela Community School, which has long waiting lists. But learning self discipline is important for children and those students who are badly behaved need to learn that such behaviour will not be tolerated. I have really enjoyed reading this thread which shows a real depth of knowledge and interest. Thank you all.

Luckygirl3

*The LA tops slices a maintained schools before allocating it to the school, this £ pays for the support services it supplies eg payroll, HR etc.*

I am not sure that this is the case. Our maintained school receives its allocation, and if it wants these support services, we have to pay the LA for that via "Service Level Agreements". In other words the LA gives us all our per capita and other money, and we then choose which of their services we want and give them money for that. So we get the money, and then we have to hand some of it back if we want these services.

I think to some extent we are both correct, certainly as far as the LA that I have experience of. We did pay extra for any training and IT support via the LA but we had no choice in terms of payroll and HR (sorry can't remember all the details as it's a while ago) but I do remember that we had more freedom to choose our suppliers and overall the % of the budget which was top sliced was less as an academy. I'd like to dispel any myths regarding academy funding, it may come direct to the trust but it certainly didn't give the school much, if any increase in budget!

Education and health should be taken out of politics.
I agree. Making long term plans would be much simpler.
It’ll be a brave government who takes that step and an even braver government who would refrain from saying that the proposals came from their party member.
Even where 6 year olds are working as a ‘team’ one person will claim credit for doing the work and they don’t change.

If our stuffy narrow minded thickos of policiticians lived I the real world instead of trying to be all trendy and down with the techies they'd know that different types of education and attainment in all walks of life basically cover all bases when it comes to available workforce! Not everyone needs to be getting a degree and aspiring to work in high tech/finance/politics/AI !!! we will always need joiners plumbers builders car mechanics engineers dinner ladies nurses auxiliaries dustmen counci.l workers telephone engineers road layers etc etc etc! And good PAID mums dad's grandparents who release parents to work for a small fee!! We need to start a revolution of ordinary people making extraordinary decisions

Roddi3363

Education and health should be taken out of politics. The countries around the world where education is valued are generally those where these important areas are funded properly but are not subject to change every few years because of political whim and fancy.
I have taught cross-phase across my career and have visited many countries to observe their education systems. Countries such as Finland, New Zealand and Singapore respect and value teaching as a profession, whereas here everyone thinks they know best. The other issue is the constant maelstrom of changing policy, procedures and practices which schools and settings are expected to encompass, sometimes with very little research or funding for training behind it. Ofsted used to be a reasonable measure of school quality but its parameters change virtually every year and thus their judgements are fairly meaningless. All children should have the right to a good education and that starts with quality schools, early years provision and staffing. Buildings, resources and access to quality environments indoors and outside is critical too.

Couldn't agree MORE!!!! I've always thought that NHS education and social care should be a cross/all party responsibility and not be allowed to be used as vote winning political footballs!. They're far far too important to be left to the incompetent vagaries of unqualified greedy politicians.its a shame that we the people have no say or control over this process.

Education and health should be taken out of politics. The countries around the world where education is valued are generally those where these important areas are funded properly but are not subject to change every few years because of political whim and fancy.

Indeed so! The micromanagement of schools, particularly in terms of curriculum, is a dead hand. And the fluctuations of policy make forward planning impossible - for example, does this government want every school to be in a MAT? Or doesn't it? There is no way of knowing. It was policy until recently, but seems to have been dropped, although no definite statement to work on, just a dropping of the Schools Bill - and who knows if they might pick it up again? Or if a possible future government might decree something different.

How are governing bodies supposed to plan long term under these circumstances?