Compulsory Maths till you’re 18.

Anniepa

Am I missing something here? How can there be any objections to any sort of education?? It will not be A level type maths - no doubt skills to help with life eg banking, paying bills etc.

But what if they have left school at 16 and are in work which does not need maths? Will they have to go part-time to attend compulsory Maths lessons once or twice a week at college or school?

A lot of people are not academics but enjoy the arts and sport more so, as did I. Me thinks that taught monetary basics are missing - budgeting, prioritising.
Sideways move: Many people today don’t know how to budget and don’t know how to put together a cheap healthy meal - all this comes with Math. Prioritising, well, mobile phone is the top of many lists! I read an article on a young who was struggling financially, he said that he had given up his mobile phone and Netflix. Well done to a sensible young man.

Am I missing something here? How can there be any objections to any sort of education?? It will not be A level type maths - no doubt skills to help with life eg banking, paying bills etc.

Surely not all need to study maths until 18. A good level of numeracy yes, to enable figures to be understood eg accounts. The current fuel bills is an example, interest on a/cs, credit agreements. Studying maths is different from being numerate and not all are caoable of understanding maths to a high level unless of course the system will be watered down and spread over a longer timescale in the hope most will reach a basic standard. Sledgehammer to crack a nut comes to mind.

I agree with Doodledog, I don’t think all pupils/students should be made to study maths until they are 18. I was at Grammar school in the late 50s, and a bit of a dreamer. I studied all the basic subjects including maths(geometry, algebra, trigonometry etc), Latin, French etc. I was in the 3rd division maths (the no hopers), and the maths teacher had very little interest in us. I was told by headmistress (mid GCE exams) that I needn’t expect to pass any exams. I passed 6 out of 8, and then my parents removed me. I have a BA from London University, and subsequently 2 postgraduate MAs. I have lectured in colleges, and won residencies in other countries. I was also awarded a Winston Churchill Travel Scholarship. I wonder what would happen today to ‘my headmistress’. Maybe she would have been sacked?! She never apologised.
So I do not think everyone should be made to study maths until 18 (just because it’s Rishis favourite subject). But I do believe that everyone should be able to do the full curriculum until O grades or 16 years of age, everything you learn comes in useful along the way.

And I can work out percentages in my head, know my times tables and can do addition subtraction and division fairly easily without a calculator! Its all I have really needed in daily life

I would have hated it. Not my best subject and have always struggled with it and found it boring. I prefer languages and Art. . It is just another attempted diversion from more pressing matters.

I hated maths at school, and feared my maths teachers! although I excelled in the Arts subjects, and Languages. I didn't pass O’level maths, but did some how manage to pass Chemistry, Physics and Biology at O’level! Thanks to private tutoring from my lovely, kind, Physics teacher; who commented that he had never met a child before me who was good at science, but couldn't do maths!
I have improved over the years, but my year 8 grandson is already better at maths than me!
I think I would have had a break down if I had not been able to drop Maths at 16 and instead I sat A’levels in History, English Lit and French, all of which I loved

So arithmetic, stats and geometry, then?

That's all maths. 🤦🏼

For most people, maths to GCSE level will see them in good stead for their future and to stay in school post 16 or go to a technical college, then this qualification is a standard requirement. I feel he's aiming at the wrong people here. The aim should be towards those that fail their maths GCSE, eg those that can't work out a simple 10% discount in their head, those that can't give change unless the till tells them how much.

Can I just wholeheartedly support BOTH of FannyCornforth’s highly intelligent ideas outlined above.

I failed CSE maths, then failed GCE Maths twice and finally achieved a C pass in GCSE in my mid thirties through the very clear teaching of a distance learning tutor while I was at sea. Despite holding a Master of Science degree, but no first degree - I can honestly say that, apart from very simple arithmetic, a bit of simplistic stats and basic geometry, I have NEVER used maths in any job, task or skill in the 55 years since I left school.

Plunger wrote:

"I hope by maths it will be numeracy as in how to work out interest rates on loans, keeping to a budget, how mortgages work. Amazes me how many young people do not understand things such as compound interest etc"

I agree that applied maths is needed. I am not a teacher of modern maths, however for what it's worth, I guess the theory has to be learned before the applications can be understood. Moreover I also guess you have to do the classroom practice before you can understand the theory.

I think they should make sure that the children that are capable of doing so, should have a secure knowledge of basic maths and economy, and leave the more advanced maths to those that want to have a career in fields that would need that. There's so many unnecessary subjects they are also required to do and puts them under so much pressure these days. Teach them basic living and social skills, and our society will benefit from it. I would have rebelled if I'd been made to do maths until 18, as I couldn't cope with it after we got to algebra etc, and I'm sure the other subjects I enjoyed would have consequently suffered.

Tiggersuki I forgot to mention that young football players starting out for the top teams are on salaries which make the starting salaries from Imperial look minuscule…. Btw

Tiggersuki

As a retired secondary maths teacher who taught all abilities from special needs to A level I was appalled by his ill thought out statement. Also I am very worried when people claim almost as a badge of honour that they were bad at maths, they would not do this over literacy!
Bobby Seagull was interviewed about this and made many salient points and I do hope the government were listening. It should not be further exam study unless a student has not yet reached a basic standard. However teaching understanding of statistics, percentages, interest and household management would be good.
My main caveat however is even when I was teaching we had a shortage of qualified staff and it was a disaster getting a PE teacher ,say, to fill in to make up their timetable. It is demoralising for students to be taught by somebody who hated the subject themselves.
Teachers need to be far better paid to even get them to train for maths and science and technology as it is far better paid and less stressful in industry.
My own son who got top grades at A level in double maths, Physics and electronics and went on to Imperial College and got a Masters and PHD, always aimed to start on a salary higher than the one I finished on as a deputy head of a large maths department! He succeeded easily and started on a salary over £100,000 a year with many fellow students earning more than double that.

It was possible for sports science graduates to qualify as secondary school teachers using an apprenticeship scheme rather than the more conventional PGCE route. So a PE teacher with a good grade at A level maths was properly prepared to cope with teaching GCSE mathematics. It makes sense to have two or more subjects as a sports teacher especially when not every 60 year old can run around the football pitch.

Of course there’s always the option of increasing knowledge as an adult via The Open University or Birkbeck and improving on mathematical knowledge.

Plunger

I hope by maths it will be numeracy as in how to work out interest rates on loans, keeping to a budget, how mortgages work. Amazes me how many young people do not understand things such as compound interest etc

this- and not understanding those basics is a disaster, for individuals, their families, and for society at large.

There are lots of people saying how they have never used maths in real life.

I can confidently say that I have never missed not knowing how to lay bricks.

There should be a "Learn Everything for Life" course which should be mandatory for everyone
Changing a Plug, Changing a light bulb, cooking, hanging wallpaper, basic bricklaying, dressmaking, putting together flatpacks, budgeting.
I could go on .......

growstuff

Maybe improving classroom methods would be the key. It certainly seems that way from what some GNers are claiming from their ability to do real life maths after being classroom failures.

I have to agree, growstuff. Also with your comment about applied arithmetic'.

I didn't 'hate' maths at secondary school, but I struggled with it and found much of it boring. I think this is because, although it was a grammar school we had some truly appalling teachers and they were the ones who taught bottom sets (that was where I always was..).

I still have one of my maths GCE 'O' level papers on which I wrote my answers to each problem. I scraped a 6, the lowest 'pass' mark and I am mystified at how I even manged to achieve that as most of my answers are so utterly wrong... Yet I can answer them correctly now because of life experience of basic arithmetic.

I have to say that I quite liked geometry and have found Pythagoras 'square on the hypotenuse' incredibly useful for setting out right angles when doing things like fencing...

Some things do stick.

I hope by maths it will be numeracy as in how to work out interest rates on loans, keeping to a budget, how mortgages work. Amazes me how many young people do not understand things such as compound interest etc

You just wonder what business it is of governments to set curriculums, unless you happen to live in a communist country or a right wing dictatorship. They should concentrate on sorting out all the health problems and financial problems first.

Totally agree nanna!

A very interesting thread but actually, the experience of us oldies is not that relevant to today. Today’s young adults need to be literate and numerate at a reasonable level. My GD seems to be doing well in arithmetic (which seems to be what she’s doing but having said that, she has mentioned algebra). She’s got a decent brain and is going to be ok. However, her mum is an English teacher at secondary level and despite her best efforts she tells me that some kids simply cannot get it, no matter what you do. She has said it’s unfair to keep them on as it’s just torturous for them.

As a retired secondary maths teacher who taught all abilities from special needs to A level I was appalled by his ill thought out statement. Also I am very worried when people claim almost as a badge of honour that they were bad at maths, they would not do this over literacy!
Bobby Seagull was interviewed about this and made many salient points and I do hope the government were listening. It should not be further exam study unless a student has not yet reached a basic standard. However teaching understanding of statistics, percentages, interest and household management would be good.
My main caveat however is even when I was teaching we had a shortage of qualified staff and it was a disaster getting a PE teacher ,say, to fill in to make up their timetable. It is demoralising for students to be taught by somebody who hated the subject themselves.
Teachers need to be far better paid to even get them to train for maths and science and technology as it is far better paid and less stressful in industry.
My own son who got top grades at A level in double maths, Physics and electronics and went on to Imperial College and got a Masters and PHD, always aimed to start on a salary higher than the one I finished on as a deputy head of a large maths department! He succeeded easily and started on a salary over £100,000 a year with many fellow students earning more than double that.

Go into a pub and watch the local pool champion seeing off all-comers for the night. She's using an intuitive knowledge of some pretty sophisticated maths and physics and probably hasn't sat a post-GCSE exam in either subject.

Conversely, there are plenty of maths PhDs who couldn't do a household budget for nuts.

We ALREADY kind of do- as Hetty58 points out- its part of Further education, college courses etc- the youngsters are forced to attain it in college alongside their college course if they failed it at GCSE- and english also- and keep ploughing away at it till they do pass- so technically can be beyond 18! This is all ridiculous- how is this freedom of choice?