Compulsory Maths till you’re 18.

Same as Doodledog, didn't do o level maths but a couple of science degrees... I just couldn't have coped with forced maths, in fact school after 16 was beyond me. I do hate the assumption that school can force people to learn and confirm, for many it's pure torture.

LadyHonoriaDedlock

As a former maths teacher I think this is an appalling idea. It's the worst kind of populist dog-whistling. It's based on the premise that there's a problem with basic numeracy, which outside of lurid tabloid stories doesn't really exist. And it isn't about improving education, it's about political point-scoring.

Anyway, what maths are you going to teach to those who have decided that it's not a subject for them? Hours of basic algebra drills? These are 16-18 year-olds, you can legislate to force schools to have the classes but you can't make young people of that age turn up to the classes.

This is one of the very few things I agreed with Margaret Thatcher (in a minority in her own Cabinet) about – what's taught in schools is a matter for teachers, not politicians.

You can make children of any age turn up at school if you fine their parents for their non-attendence.

This old-fashioned idea has been re-used in Danish schools where attendence was poor and it worked.

It also worked in my Scottish childhood where the attendence officer visited homes to find out what was wrong if children had been off school for more than three or four days.

Unfortunately, fining parents, or children over 16 won't however make those who dislike a subject listen in class or learn anything they have decided not to bother with.

Conquering these attitudes can be done by a good teacher who can make the subject interesting and convince a class that there is a good reason for learning it properly.

Anyone faced with 24 teenagers bent on making teacher's life hell, will have given up the attempt, so it seems futile to land teachers with even more pupils who are treading water until the day they finally can leave school.

I have noticed that many schools don't have 6th forms anyway.

I hope this thread is sent to the Prime Minister. He could learn a lot methinks.

I was good at arithmetic, but absolutely hopless at maths which I dropped when I finished Senior 2.

Never in my adult life have I needed algerbra, geometry or anything else that those who love maths mention.

This being so, I see no reason at all why maths should be made compulsory all the way through school.

If it is made compulsory, I hope it will include making and keeping a household budget, filling in Income tax forms and calculating single and compound interest. I also trust that English grammer and punctuation will similarly be made compulsory, plus at least one foreign language, but preferably two.

Educated in Scotland in the 1950s and 60s, I left schoól able to write grammatical English, French and German and converse in both French and German. I could also read and write Latin. All this has been of much more use to me than Pythagoras' theorem - the only part of my Maths lessons I succeeded in understanding.

How much actual face to face teaching have pupils missed because of Covid?
They may have been set work to do at home but without explanation or someone to explain something they don't understand, they may be struggling now.

How many parents and grandparents have been trying to help but teaching discontinued methods, even if they get the right answers in the end?

I agree with you, LadyHonoriaDedlock but there are going to be gaps in learning now and perhaps extra lessons might be necessary for some pupils, although, as you say, These are 16-18 year-olds, you can legislate to force schools to have the classes but you can't make young people of that age turn up to the classes.

And if they have left school and have taken up traineeship which doesn't involve Maths? How can you force them?

This must be a proposal for England only.

Ridiculous idea and probably unworkable given shortage of teachers. It's just another dead cat thrown on the table. Perhaps Sunak wants everyone's favourite hobby to be writing spreadsheets (apparently he loves a spreadsheet). Lots of scope for reform of education system but forget this one. Instead, concentrate on ensuring that all pupils leave school with good levels of numeracy and literacy, and have access to employment training and apprenticeships.

Grammaretto

I'm loving this thread. It's the best read
I never understood why I needed maths to get into Art college.
I'll bet Art O level wasn't necessary for university.

I struggle with knitting patterns which are maths. Knitting is all about counting and measuring but with manual skill and spacial awareness thrown in.

Maths is in just about everything in life actually.
My DGS is taking Latin Higher. He likes it.

Re knitting patterns have you a knitting counter that goes on a knitting needle? It helps a lot. Also some knitting patterns are for beginners and are mostly doable. Having also experienced the joys or otherwise of an art degree, knitting is really enjoyable. And useful…. And recyclable.

I scraped through my GCE O-level and any more tuition would not have improved that, I'm certain. I still can't manage basic sudoku no matter how much friends try and help.

I saw a cartoon the other day, sorry I can't find it, with an A&E doctor tearing her hair out at the lines of patients in the corridor saying 'I've lost count of the number of patients here' and Rishi replies 'I've got the answer, compulsory maths till you're 18'. Rather sums him up to me, got his priorities all wrong.

volver

This will get me banned, maybe...

It wasn't beyond you, you just weren't trying hard enough because you aren't interested enough.

Or you have dyscalculia.

This is why I'm not a teacher. 😜

I think one of the most basic errors in the teaching of maths is that it is assumed every child in the class can grasp the concepts at the same rate. If someone, say through illness, misses the section where fractions are learned, then that seems to be it. Everyone else has moved on and there's a hole in one's learning.

I thought at that age, he was meaning maths to include how to understand mortgages, loans and how credit cards and debts are best managed. Should be very useful

I have an inability to understand basic maths . I have been told it is due to being dyspraxic (diagnosed in my 40s). I completely failed O level maths , I got 2%.
Maths was a source of stress for me at school .I got 7 O levels and 2 A levels . I was able to do science subjects with no problem . I also got 2 degrees , and had a career as a health professional . I wonder what will happen to those of us with this condition .

As a former maths teacher I think this is an appalling idea. It's the worst kind of populist dog-whistling. It's based on the premise that there's a problem with basic numeracy, which outside of lurid tabloid stories doesn't really exist. And it isn't about improving education, it's about political point-scoring.

Anyway, what maths are you going to teach to those who have decided that it's not a subject for them? Hours of basic algebra drills? These are 16-18 year-olds, you can legislate to force schools to have the classes but you can't make young people of that age turn up to the classes.

This is one of the very few things I agreed with Margaret Thatcher (in a minority in her own Cabinet) about – what's taught in schools is a matter for teachers, not politicians.

Its/it's is sometimes due to an unnoticed autocorrect.

HannahLoisLuke

I think he means arithmetic and basic bookkeeping rather than maths. If that’s the case then yes I agree. Everybody needs to understand how to manage their money as well as everyday stuff like measuring for curtains, carpet etc. we need simple maths in everything we do.

Yes, this is how I interpret what he said. Maths at the appropriate level, not necessarily A'Level type of maths.

One of the huge issues we have currently in the country is debt, and uncontrollable debt most of the time. It is causing massive issues, social, mental, fiscal, etc, etc issues which not only impact the 'victims', but all around them, their partners and families- and thus society at large as it has to pick up the pieces in 100s of ways. Understanding basic arithmetic including debt, is paramount.

Wouldn't it be more useful to teach critical thinking? Some basic philosophy and to encourage more pursuits in creative arts and/or music? Sunak seems to want people to become automatons. We need thinkers and creatives.
But if anything is to be compulsory I think it should be use of English. How often on social media do we come across those who - while, seemingly otherwise quite reasonable - can't tell the difference between its and it's, or your/you're and even confidently yet ignorantly write 'should of' instead of should have.

jessycake

I can only assume Kwasi Kwatang finished maths age 8

Kwasi K worked as a financial analyst. He has an exceptional academic record.
Not too sure how to argue this one!

Yes, if you haven't been taught and absorbed enough to build on by the age of 16, I don't think most ever will.

In the meantime, strikes, the NHS problems etc have been solved.

I'm loving this thread. It's the best read
I never understood why I needed maths to get into Art college.
I'll bet Art O level wasn't necessary for university.

I struggle with knitting patterns which are maths. Knitting is all about counting and measuring but with manual skill and spacial awareness thrown in.

Maths is in just about everything in life actually.
My DGS is taking Latin Higher. He likes it.

I think everybody needs to have basic maths and english skills but why isn't the concentration on ensuring students have these skills before they reach age 18? Lots of students leave school before that age. What about those who stay on for A-levels in arts subjects, why should they spend valuable time studying more maths when they and their teachers would otherwise be able to spend that time on their exam subjects?

volver

This will get me banned, maybe...

It wasn't beyond you, you just weren't trying hard enough because you aren't interested enough.

Or you have dyscalculia.

This is why I'm not a teacher. 😜

Or, as I said, the teacher was a poor communicator.

It's not as interesting as, for example, poetry or Shakespeare. 😀
Or Latin

But then, my friend, who was an excellent Maths teacher, loathed English Lit.

This will get me banned, maybe...

It wasn't beyond you, you just weren't trying hard enough because you aren't interested enough.

Or you have dyscalculia.

This is why I'm not a teacher. 😜

Maybe they should concentrate on getting it right during their pre-16 education! My grandaughter brought her exercise books home from Primary School when she left it. We couldn't understand how a child so proficient could start getting so anxious about Maths. When we saw her exercise book, we realised what the problem was. The teacher was marking stuff wrong which was actually right. This went on throughout the exercise book and so when our grandaughter kept saying that she couldn't understand what she was doing wrong so couldn't put it right, we were flummoxed!
That said, I don't see a problem building upon the the skills learned from school. I don't think everyone is suited to Maths A level.

Simply stop interfering, let the professionals do their job and pay them a fair wage. The Government blame the teachers but it is they who tell teachers what to teach.
Some people are maths oriented, some are English, art or sports and it's no use flogging a dead horse to change that. My father and brother were excellent at maths and would spend a considerable amount of time explaining a maths problem and at the end would ask if I got it. Quite simply no, it wasn’t the teaching, it was me, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division fine but fractions and beyond just become a jumble of figures and within seconds of being told on how to solve them, it has gone like trying to hold smoke in your hand. Yet, other subjects were fine.

If this is to help with people's understanding of finances and economics (as stated by Sunak) then it won't help.
I better solution would be a subject which provides an introduction to the essential skills that an adult needs which are not included in the current curriculum. Such subjects could include how finance works and debt, how to budget, economics, the law, politics, environmental sustainability, first aid, setting up home and basic childcare. There are probably others which would prepare children for the post-Thatcher world better than extending maths to 18. These could be taught in the same class from third year of secondary school as a subject per term.