Compulsory Maths till you’re 18.

As a former maths teacher I think this is an appalling idea. It's the worst kind of populist dog-whistling. It's based on the premise that there's a problem with basic numeracy, which outside of lurid tabloid stories doesn't really exist. And it isn't about improving education, it's about political point-scoring.

Anyway, what maths are you going to teach to those who have decided that it's not a subject for them? Hours of basic algebra drills? These are 16-18 year-olds, you can legislate to force schools to have the classes but you can't make young people of that age turn up to the classes.

This is one of the very few things I agreed with Margaret Thatcher (in a minority in her own Cabinet) about – what's taught in schools is a matter for teachers, not politicians.

I have an inability to understand basic maths . I have been told it is due to being dyspraxic (diagnosed in my 40s). I completely failed O level maths , I got 2%.
Maths was a source of stress for me at school .I got 7 O levels and 2 A levels . I was able to do science subjects with no problem . I also got 2 degrees , and had a career as a health professional . I wonder what will happen to those of us with this condition .

I thought at that age, he was meaning maths to include how to understand mortgages, loans and how credit cards and debts are best managed. Should be very useful

volver

This will get me banned, maybe...

It wasn't beyond you, you just weren't trying hard enough because you aren't interested enough.

Or you have dyscalculia.

This is why I'm not a teacher. 😜

I think one of the most basic errors in the teaching of maths is that it is assumed every child in the class can grasp the concepts at the same rate. If someone, say through illness, misses the section where fractions are learned, then that seems to be it. Everyone else has moved on and there's a hole in one's learning.

I scraped through my GCE O-level and any more tuition would not have improved that, I'm certain. I still can't manage basic sudoku no matter how much friends try and help.

I saw a cartoon the other day, sorry I can't find it, with an A&E doctor tearing her hair out at the lines of patients in the corridor saying 'I've lost count of the number of patients here' and Rishi replies 'I've got the answer, compulsory maths till you're 18'. Rather sums him up to me, got his priorities all wrong.

Grammaretto

I'm loving this thread. It's the best read
I never understood why I needed maths to get into Art college.
I'll bet Art O level wasn't necessary for university.

I struggle with knitting patterns which are maths. Knitting is all about counting and measuring but with manual skill and spacial awareness thrown in.

Maths is in just about everything in life actually.
My DGS is taking Latin Higher. He likes it.

Re knitting patterns have you a knitting counter that goes on a knitting needle? It helps a lot. Also some knitting patterns are for beginners and are mostly doable. Having also experienced the joys or otherwise of an art degree, knitting is really enjoyable. And useful…. And recyclable.

Ridiculous idea and probably unworkable given shortage of teachers. It's just another dead cat thrown on the table. Perhaps Sunak wants everyone's favourite hobby to be writing spreadsheets (apparently he loves a spreadsheet). Lots of scope for reform of education system but forget this one. Instead, concentrate on ensuring that all pupils leave school with good levels of numeracy and literacy, and have access to employment training and apprenticeships.

How much actual face to face teaching have pupils missed because of Covid?
They may have been set work to do at home but without explanation or someone to explain something they don't understand, they may be struggling now.

How many parents and grandparents have been trying to help but teaching discontinued methods, even if they get the right answers in the end?

I agree with you, LadyHonoriaDedlock but there are going to be gaps in learning now and perhaps extra lessons might be necessary for some pupils, although, as you say, These are 16-18 year-olds, you can legislate to force schools to have the classes but you can't make young people of that age turn up to the classes.

And if they have left school and have taken up traineeship which doesn't involve Maths? How can you force them?

This must be a proposal for England only.

I was good at arithmetic, but absolutely hopless at maths which I dropped when I finished Senior 2.

Never in my adult life have I needed algerbra, geometry or anything else that those who love maths mention.

This being so, I see no reason at all why maths should be made compulsory all the way through school.

If it is made compulsory, I hope it will include making and keeping a household budget, filling in Income tax forms and calculating single and compound interest. I also trust that English grammer and punctuation will similarly be made compulsory, plus at least one foreign language, but preferably two.

Educated in Scotland in the 1950s and 60s, I left schoól able to write grammatical English, French and German and converse in both French and German. I could also read and write Latin. All this has been of much more use to me than Pythagoras' theorem - the only part of my Maths lessons I succeeded in understanding.

I hope this thread is sent to the Prime Minister. He could learn a lot methinks.

I have noticed that many schools don't have 6th forms anyway.

LadyHonoriaDedlock

As a former maths teacher I think this is an appalling idea. It's the worst kind of populist dog-whistling. It's based on the premise that there's a problem with basic numeracy, which outside of lurid tabloid stories doesn't really exist. And it isn't about improving education, it's about political point-scoring.

Anyway, what maths are you going to teach to those who have decided that it's not a subject for them? Hours of basic algebra drills? These are 16-18 year-olds, you can legislate to force schools to have the classes but you can't make young people of that age turn up to the classes.

This is one of the very few things I agreed with Margaret Thatcher (in a minority in her own Cabinet) about – what's taught in schools is a matter for teachers, not politicians.

You can make children of any age turn up at school if you fine their parents for their non-attendence.

This old-fashioned idea has been re-used in Danish schools where attendence was poor and it worked.

It also worked in my Scottish childhood where the attendence officer visited homes to find out what was wrong if children had been off school for more than three or four days.

Unfortunately, fining parents, or children over 16 won't however make those who dislike a subject listen in class or learn anything they have decided not to bother with.

Conquering these attitudes can be done by a good teacher who can make the subject interesting and convince a class that there is a good reason for learning it properly.

Anyone faced with 24 teenagers bent on making teacher's life hell, will have given up the attempt, so it seems futile to land teachers with even more pupils who are treading water until the day they finally can leave school.

Same as Doodledog, didn't do o level maths but a couple of science degrees... I just couldn't have coped with forced maths, in fact school after 16 was beyond me. I do hate the assumption that school can force people to learn and confirm, for many it's pure torture.

My grandson is autistic and also has dyscalculia and although bright in other subjects I feel he would struggle doing maths up to the age of 18

Obviously,no one here who went to university lived in a place where you could not go there if you failed “0” level maths. South Australia demanded it. I never liked Maths because I did not have good maths teachers. As a teacher myself for many years I knew lots of people who were not very good at the job. If a teacher knows the basics of arithmetic and lives his or her life with basic knowledge then you don’t need a a full time maths teacher to teach useful arithmetical understanding. From early years those of us who enjoyed chanting our times tables always knew the simple calculations and it was fun!
Sunak’s speech was not inspiring but some people did realise what he meant by maths until 18 and in fact he clarified it later in the day. He did not mean that everyone needed to do Maths A level. Too many of us are proud of how poor we are at maths when if we had been fortunate to have inspiring teachers we might have performed better.

On this particular subject I agree with Volver. We cannot all aspire to have her level of knowledge but we all need to understand the skills necessary to run our lives well. I had to employ a tutor when doing my post grad work as basic knowledge of maths was required to do statistical work. So hats off to the people here who understood and have careers based on mathematical knowledge and stood their ground. Without them the world would be a poorer place. I do not care which political party is in power, basic maths/arithmetical knowledge is a must for all students.

The shortage of maths teachers means that at GCSE (and A level) they are taught the modules which the existing maths teachers can teach, there is no choice for the students and I know from my friends it is the same at their children's schools. My kid goes to a nice school too

Maths in every day life would be good. Looking at how mortgages, pensions and savings work. And how to manage household budgets, car running costs…. The list goes on. I remember learning lots of things in math that I never used again. Let’s see practical uses.

ronib

Grammaretto

I'm loving this thread. It's the best read
I never understood why I needed maths to get into Art college.
I'll bet Art O level wasn't necessary for university.

I struggle with knitting patterns which are maths. Knitting is all about counting and measuring but with manual skill and spacial awareness thrown in.

Maths is in just about everything in life actually.
My DGS is taking Latin Higher. He likes it.

Re knitting patterns have you a knitting counter that goes on a knitting needle? It helps a lot. Also some knitting patterns are for beginners and are mostly doable. Having also experienced the joys or otherwise of an art degree, knitting is really enjoyable. And useful…. And recyclable.

The maths needed for knitting isn't about just counting stitches!

Knitting involves maths right from the beginning: counting stitches, calculating gauge (that is the number of stitches and rows required to knit a 10cm square for a particular yarn), working out how many skeins (the bundles of yarn) are needed for a project, and rifling through change to work out how much yarn you can buy at the yarn shop sale.

Firstly, I think this is a massive dead cat. It won't happen because there aren't enough maths teachers now.

Secondly, it would be interesting to know if Sunak has any idea what he actually means.

If it were up to me (it isn't and never will be), I would like to see a basic understanding of statistics, probability and risk factors. Forget about geometry, trigonometry, etc.

I would include analysis and critical thinking. The kind of task I would include would be giving students an article from a newspaper with a graph or chart and getting them to consider how the figures have been interpreted. What do the figures actually tell us? Sometimes it's not the same as the accompanying narrative.

IMO this kind of thinking is essential to a functioning democracy, in which people make decisions (vote) based on facts, not interpretation of facts by somebody with an agenda.

Samiejb

I thought at that age, he was meaning maths to include how to understand mortgages, loans and how credit cards and debts are best managed. Should be very useful

That’s a good idea.
I’m not sure it would need 2 extra years, but better nearer an age when they need to work out a mortgage.

Failed maths o level twice. That’s with one to one coaching from firstly the head of maths and then the headmaster of my grammar school. I had to have coaching from my primary school headmaster to get through my eleven plus so I knew I had problems. I have never found it a problem ever since. I can do mental arithmetic and used to do my husband’s accounts. If you are not going to be using equations and geometry in your work then I don’t see the point.

Forgot to say that I was kept in one playtime in primary school for not being able to get the 5 times table!

I hated maths at school and ultimately didn’t do well. Also the teacher was dreadful. However I ended up working as Assistant Company Secretary eventually which I coped with admirably. Having had responsibility in my career for the employment of secretaries I can honestly say it’s English that is the issue. Have a degree but can’t write a standard letter properly and the spelling mistakes are appalling. Advanced Maths is needed for engineers, pilots, etc but I doubt nurses need anything other than basic maths.
It’s getting silly now. There is a need to get back to basics not studying maths at a level which isn’t necessarily appropriate.

Popsie
It’s getting silly now. There is a need to get back to basics not studying maths at a level which isn’t necessarily appropriate.
Which brings us back to the eternal question of what do posters on GN consider to be basic maths?

So many things I want to say...

I have Scottish highers in 6 subjects; two sciences and French included. And Latin, Maths and English. It’s possible to be good enough at them all, although I know that people just aren’t excited about Maths.

Callistemon I did find maths as interesting as poetry or Shakespeare; I think there’s something in the comments about it being taught properly. Maths actually tells you about how the world works, while poetry is just made up stuff…

There’s a video doing the rounds on Twitter of Simon Pegg having a rant about compulsory maths. Like others have said, it’s a dead cat and won’t happen, and it’s probably a daft idea anyway. But where I disagree with Pegg is that he says that everybody will turn into drones just entering data all day (I paraphrase). Maths isn’t boring, and its not repetitive, and its not mechanical.

That said, I love a spreadsheet. How do you manage your electricity bills without a spreadsheet?

I am now going for a lie down as this is the first time that annie1 and I have agreed about anything.