Children with problems in mainstream schools today.

Mollygo

But don’t you think that schools deal with those children?
If we have non-verbal children, staff are aware of that and address it. We use Wellcomm to support both staff and children with speech and language issues.

There are lots of activities before and alongside using a pencil, and nowadays using a knife and fork hasn’t always been a focus in their pre-school life.
I’m sure that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t learn it.
Quite often children, including those like the one you describe, have no idea how to play. So the teaching activities have to include that.
For example, the idea of a home corner is strange to so many children now. Their life has been “get up, get dressed, go to nursery/child care etc. so what would you put in the home corner that you know would be relevant to all the children?
A child still with a strong trajectory schema will often simply throw whatever equipment is available, including dolls, plastic fruit, crayons, or bricks. They also have to be taught how to play appropriately-and that doesn’t mean straightjacketing them into one right way. It means developing life and social skills.
You can’t just put equipment in an area and expect them to deal with it if they have no experience of that situation. You have to interact with what they offer and demonstrate what else they can do.

Not all children have nursery experiences. The problem is that there are still expectations which depend upon the child coming into school with certain skills and some children haven't those.
I find it strange that you previously listed activities that you thought were learning play activities but now you are saying some ideas are strange to those children..
Decent play requires a high level of staffing which I know isn't available in many schools.
There are several posts on another thread about the numbers of children in classes with special needs.
You seem determined to pick holes in any examples I give. I don't know how much experience of inner-city schools in deprived areas you have had, unless you have experienced the severe deprivation I don't suppose you can really imagine it. It is undoubtedly worse now than it used to be

But don’t you think that schools deal with those children?
If we have non-verbal children, staff are aware of that and address it. We use Wellcomm to support both staff and children with speech and language issues.

There are lots of activities before and alongside using a pencil, and nowadays using a knife and fork hasn’t always been a focus in their pre-school life.
I’m sure that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t learn it.
Quite often children, including those like the one you describe, have no idea how to play. So the teaching activities have to include that.
For example, the idea of a home corner is strange to so many children now. Their life has been “get up, get dressed, go to nursery/child care etc. so what would you put in the home corner that you know would be relevant to all the children?
A child still with a strong trajectory schema will often simply throw whatever equipment is available, including dolls, plastic fruit, crayons, or bricks. They also have to be taught how to play appropriately-and that doesn’t mean straightjacketing them into one right way. It means developing life and social skills.
You can’t just put equipment in an area and expect them to deal with it if they have no experience of that situation. You have to interact with what they offer and demonstrate what else they can do.

Mollygo it's good to know play is back as an educational activity. However I suspect that just as there are children who are not toilet trained and cannot use a knife and fork there will be children who have had little or no play experience and need something very basic.
Years ago we would get the odd child like this. It was easier then to allow a child more play. I once had a child whose only words were "Georgie Best". I found her once sitting quietly in the Wendy House sticking a drawing pin into the doll she was holding.
I don't think a child who can't use a knife and fork will have decent pencil skills.

Young Voices is a great project and introduces children to the joy of singing. But sadly that is often the last bot of singing they do till the following year. Music has become an add-on in schools now. But not at the school where I am governor - luckily the head is really on board with providing children with every possible opportunity.

To be fair, I’m only familiar with 2 primaries outside the one where I work, but in those, the existence of worksheets in EYFS is a thing of the past.
Play is structured, in that it has a purpose, Some examples
e.g. an outdoor activity, with toys that require balance, taking turns and consideration for others
e.g. activity in the “café” or “shop”where children are encouraged to “read” the menu or develop mark making skills by taking orders or making shopping lists.

e.g. a maths activity where children choose a criteria for sorting a variety of items, explaining to the adult and each other, why they have sorted this way (often starts with claiming a single group of items “because I like them”.
I could go on, as any EYFS teacher could.

The purpose of any assessment here, outside the DM framework is to see if children are ready to move on.
If they are succeeding in the examples given, then it would be unproductive to offer the same activity without prompts. Our EYFS children like the push button prompts where the teacher gives a purpose for sorting e.g. Can you sort them from smallest to largest? Or even children setting their own challenges for other children to try.
Certainly there are more formal activities, usually in small groups e.g. to develop pencil control-important because if children use a poor grip all the way though Reception, it’s hard to correct, but EYFS has changed immeasurably since I started teaching. The only thing that’s really the same as when I first started is that some children come to school already so capable, (soaking up reading or counting or writing) and pushed by their parents at home.

Oh yes, and don't under-estimate the value of participating in music and art activities alongside play. These make for happy times and a less stressful environment.

Luckygirl3

Witzend

I had gathered - possibly incorrectly? - that SureStart was often shunned by the parents of children who would most benefit from it, while middle class parents attended in rather greater numbers.

When I was in social work this was not the case at all. Joining in with Sure Start was by referral, often from health visitors. Where I was working - a very deprived area of a city - Sure Start became the place to go for the mums and their children. I organised some singing at ours - they all loved it!

When we were at the supermarket today, some children from a local primary school were collecting for their trip to join in Young Voices 2024. They were very excited and told me about some of the songs they were going to sing.
Later on I could hear them giving a rendition of a couple of very old songs before they left.

It sounds like a wonderful project and they were full of enthusiasm.

I found this article some time ago as I’m quite involved with a young friend who’s child has autism.
Food for thought.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35134716/

Joseann

This may sound simplistic, but concentrate on learning through play. Play encourages social skills far better than anything else. Chuck out the worksheets and assessments and let the children grow by discovery. You can promote play without fancy resources.
We might even find many of the problems disappear.

Oh how true 👍

My two sons are both in their 40s now. My eldest son learnt to read because he was at school and basically had to. 14 month younger son learnt to read because he wanted to. He learnt to read from the books his brother was bringing home. He was ready for school before his 4th birthday. He absolutely hated going to play school and often said 'Is it play school today? and if it was he'd reply ' Then I'm not getting up!' Getting him there was a nightmare. Thankfully the health visitor was able to arrange for him to see an educational psychologist who agreed he was ready for school, The school was unable to take him early so it was arranged that he could attend a special needs playgroup which he loved.

As service children they moved schools several times. After one move they were both a year ahead in Maths and they were able to carry on at their own pace which wouldn't happen now with the NC.

I think the NC & SATs should be scrapped in primary schools and the focus concentrated on reading and how to learn.

If a person can read they can easily find out anything they need to know these days.

BlueBelle

What is the difference though because there are huge differences I started school at 4 and loved every minute of it I was well up for learning my tables, reading, nature, drawing and I don’t remember any disruptive children
My three children now in their 50 s started one at a week after 4th birthday one at 4 1/2 and my son nearly 5 depending on their birthdays, they all took to it without any problems, going on the bus from one end of town to the other, bringing their reading books home and doing little bits of homework
I remember very, very few special needs children but now with this generation there seems so many special needs in every classroom
I understand we recognise things more now , but I don’t have memories of classroom disruption or the need of recognition of poor or different behaviour
Why ?

Agreed.

We started school age 5 and our daughters slightly younger. My brother had un-diagnosed adhd, I had un-diagnosed add -- we did well, finished, caused no big problems. Sweet nuns were well in control.

Mum kept us very active, ran off the wiggles.

Why such a change in numbers of disruptions?

Joseann

This may sound simplistic, but concentrate on learning through play. Play encourages social skills far better than anything else. Chuck out the worksheets and assessments and let the children grow by discovery. You can promote play without fancy resources.
We might even find many of the problems disappear.

Def a good idea for the very little ones, 4 or 5.👍🏻

What is the difference though because there are huge differences I started school at 4 and loved every minute of it I was well up for learning my tables, reading, nature, drawing and I don’t remember any disruptive children
My three children now in their 50 s started one at a week after 4th birthday one at 4 1/2 and my son nearly 5 depending on their birthdays, they all took to it without any problems, going on the bus from one end of town to the other, bringing their reading books home and doing little bits of homework
I remember very, very few special needs children but now with this generation there seems so many special needs in every classroom
I understand we recognise things more now , but I don’t have memories of classroom disruption or the need of recognition of poor or different behaviour
Why ?

Luckgirl3 I so agree with all you have said ! I have 7 year old GS who had very little early year’s experience due to Covid and moving house at this crucial time. He just wants to be outside climbing, running making dens and kicking a ball! My DD was amazed to be told he had a reading age of 9 because she cannot get him to read at home or even listen to her reading to him ! So much needs doing in our education system after the Gove and his mates and the pandemic .

Trust the reception and Y1 teachers and teaching assistants.

They know what they are doing even when you might think them restricted by the NC. Some wonderful practitioners in Early Years eduction.

I'd like to see more play in early years. It seems obvious that so many children will have missed out during covid, so it's even more essential.
I remember being on a bus when we had to wear masks and wondering what a child in a buggy made of it all. No one able to smile at him, no communication. It must surely have made them confused. I suppose the parent's inability to get children dressed comes from the days when nobody was bothering to dress.

Witzend

I had gathered - possibly incorrectly? - that SureStart was often shunned by the parents of children who would most benefit from it, while middle class parents attended in rather greater numbers.

It probably depends where you are. According to the staff who worked there, it was certainly true of our nearest SureStart. They agreed that the parents who attended did need the support, but reckoned poorer parents who might really have needed just didn’t go.
If I look at the children who started reception this year, the main problems seem to be immaturity, separation anxiety and parent’s inability to do things like making their children get dressed or get into or out of the car.
There are also quite a few parents asking for school support to make their children behave at home.
There is a plethora of well publicised support in the local area, both online and face to face, but the parents seem reluctant to try them, even when provided with contact details and names unless the initial contact is made together with the SENDCo.
They would rather ask the teacher or SENDCo.

Witzend

I had gathered - possibly incorrectly? - that SureStart was often shunned by the parents of children who would most benefit from it, while middle class parents attended in rather greater numbers.

When I was in social work this was not the case at all. Joining in with Sure Start was by referral, often from health visitors. Where I was working - a very deprived area of a city - Sure Start became the place to go for the mums and their children. I organised some singing at ours - they all loved it!

Joseann

This may sound simplistic, but concentrate on learning through play. Play encourages social skills far better than anything else. Chuck out the worksheets and assessments and let the children grow by discovery. You can promote play without fancy resources.
We might even find many of the problems disappear.

Goodness, how I agree.

I have always felt that school is an unnatural environment, in spite of myself being a primary school governor. It is even worse now that schools are subject to the stranglehold of the national curriculum. And worse still for children who cannot cope - I hesitate to use the words special educational needs, because needs have to be judged in relation to what is imposed on them by school.

Basically British children start formal school far too young, and sometimes get labelled as having special needs when in fact they have simply not yet reached the stage of development to be receptive to formal learning and should be out and about playing, and learning as a side benefit of that play.

They are tested and categorised, and become part of the endless data required by OfSted when they should be exploring the world and relishing its wonder, unfettered by the constraints of the likes of b****y Gove and his successors.

You will see all this touches a nerve for me!

It can be a struggle for young boys - and I make no apology for the gender stereotyping here - who often find it hard to sit still and concentrate - they need to be up and about and moving! Unfortunately this poor fit between boys and school at such young age often puts them off learning for good.

The primary school that I am involved with knows all this and teaches for the child not for OfSted.

And I so agree about Sure Start - speaking as an ex-social worker, I consider the dismantling of this excellent service as being disastrous and short-sighted - and frankly cruel.

It was quite complex. The hard to reach families were never going to go to groups, but near the end of sure start there was some good one to one work going on with those families.

I had gathered - possibly incorrectly? - that SureStart was often shunned by the parents of children who would most benefit from it, while middle class parents attended in rather greater numbers.

I would say that SEMH is a massive issue,m as well, there are some very distressed children at the moment.

I agrée Galaxy there’s an awful lot of labelling and unnecessary angst happening which often exacerbates a perceived ‘issue’ that’s resolved given time.
Some parents seem to want their child to have ‘something’ and are not prepared to do their bit in working with childcare and schools to help their children grow at the child’s pace.

This may sound simplistic, but concentrate on learning through play. Play encourages social skills far better than anything else. Chuck out the worksheets and assessments and let the children grow by discovery. You can promote play without fancy resources.
We might even find many of the problems disappear.

Thanks for starting this.
I am concerned that children particularly those with English as a second language and who have missed out on all playgroup type experiences are now turning up at schools and being sent down the additional needs route when they may just need time. I have a lot of experience with early years identification so to speak but I have been really unclear on what is actually going on with a few children lately. We need time to unpick the issues for these children. Obviously many of the strategies used with those with autism for example work well with children who have missed out on early experiences - visuals, predictable routines, etc etc so it's good if schools are using those in a general way. However referral is often very stressful for parents, so I just think those children may need time and nurture before referral. I am not explaining this very well