School trips have changed since my day…..

The letter from the school says that pupils may want to buy a book at the bookshop, so they should take enough money.

I don’t have to ask the school about the purpose of the trip. It’s obvious - it’s to educate and broaden the mind.

One in ten UB40 was about the Thatcher government , the policies at the time the unemployment and suicide rates I don't think it was actually about gay people, a brilliant song.

I don't think this trip is worthwhile at all. Young people today tend to be far more accepting of differences as they see them in their daily lives. My grandchildren know and are friends with others who are different from them. They grow up with them and it doesn't matter what their religion, colour or sexual preferences are. They are just friends.
I think this trip will just accentuate differences.

Grandma70s

nanna8

I had a bit of a laugh, David . You are so right. Our ‘sex education’ was the biological life of rabbits . The teacher told us humans were similar. That was it. My smart friend whispered that they were ‘at it’ all the time, weren’t they ?

Our school sex education in the 1950s was about rabbits, too. We liked to make the teacher blush by asking about human reproduction. We didn’t even get as far as being told humans were similar to rabbits! Luckily I had enlightened parents so I knew the ‘facts of life’.

We disected a rabbit I can’t remember whether it was male or female no discussion on reproduction beyond biological facts. There was very little interaction between boys and girls apart from the odd couple snogging behind the bicycle sheds.
We all knew about queers, the dodgy scout master and the Christine Keeler affair, lots of sniggering and vulgar jokes about that.

There was one big incentive to obey the rules, the Deputy Head, everyone respected him, he administered the cane when needed. We were just kids obeying instructions - mostly

Yes, Death in Venice is beautifully written. I loved it. And the beauty of youth so carefully expressed.

You could, of course argue that he is a paedophile though...
I confess that has only just occurred to me.
😟

The novella Death in Venice by Thomas Mann is a blast from the past for me on here. So beautifully written, exploring the themes of obsession and desire through one character's head. I had to study it (in German) for my German degree in 1980s, but hardly any emphasis was put on the homosexual content of the story, or I wasn't so aware at that age!
I'm guessing that the visit to the shop might go completely over the head of some pupils or it might enlighten a few and make them more tolerant. Different children will take away different things from it.
I'd be interested to see the hopefully meaningful preparation and follow-up around this visit in order to observe its relevance.

maddyone

^recognising and acknowledging gay rights, gay history and gay families is NOT sexualising it!^

Quite correct.
So what is the visit to the gay bookshop supposed to achieve? To my mind, discussion of gay relationships is what is important. It’s important that children know and understand that gay people exist, and families exist where the parents are gay, and that everyone, no matter what their sexuality should be treated with respect. This is ideally taught through discussion, normally under PSHE. I cannot see what going to a gay bookshop will do to enhance this since all schools now have books about same sex parents on their shelves anyway, and these books will have been chosen for the suitability.
No one has told me how a visit to a gay bookshop will in any way enhance the children’s learning, nor the objectives for such a visit. It is important to recognise that the books in any shop cannot be vetted for suitability for the children in that age group.

I can only hazard a guess that this trip is to mark/celebrate Gay Pride Month, in much the same way as Black History Month.

The bookshop visit will highlight som great gay authors.

I guess this OP will have to ask her DGC school of the purpose behind this trip.

As you like NotSpaghetti.
It doesn’t matter, it’s found on the shelves of many infant schools anyway.

NotSpaghetti

Maddyone it's a book which suggested to me that you can't say "no", that you can bully people till they give in and that difference, however lovely, is a bad thing.
Of course the Rainbow Fish itself, from memory, is very vain so that's not good. I'd rather it was a story about all the other fishes having something special too.

It's not one for me!

I think that’s a very strange interpretation of the book and certainly out of sync with infant schools because it’s found on the shelves of most, if not all, schools for infant children. It’s not about selfishness, it’s about learning to share, which is something all very young children need to do.

However, everyone’s entitled to their opinion.

pagesunbound.wordpress.com/2021/05/24/why-i-never-liked-the-rainbow-fish-by-marcus-pfister/

www.buzzfeed.com/mayaogolini/rainbow-fish-problematic

Just googled this.
I'm obviously not the only person to see the book this way maddy - one review I just read says it's teaching you to be a people pleaser even to your own detriment.

recognising and acknowledging gay rights, gay history and gay families is NOT sexualising it!

Quite correct.
So what is the visit to the gay bookshop supposed to achieve? To my mind, discussion of gay relationships is what is important. It’s important that children know and understand that gay people exist, and families exist where the parents are gay, and that everyone, no matter what their sexuality should be treated with respect. This is ideally taught through discussion, normally under PSHE. I cannot see what going to a gay bookshop will do to enhance this since all schools now have books about same sex parents on their shelves anyway, and these books will have been chosen for the suitability.
No one has told me how a visit to a gay bookshop will in any way enhance the children’s learning, nor the objectives for such a visit. It is important to recognise that the books in any shop cannot be vetted for suitability for the children in that age group.

Some of the girls used to hang around pop stars and meet them after their gigs to have sex with them. I’m talking 13 and 14 year olds. This was a ‘respectable’ girls grammar school in the early 60 s. Those pop singers would have been aged in their 20s. I’d call that exploitation.

Maddyone it's a book which suggested to me that you can't say "no", that you can bully people till they give in and that difference, however lovely, is a bad thing.
Of course the Rainbow Fish itself, from memory, is very vain so that's not good. I'd rather it was a story about all the other fishes having something special too.

It's not one for me!

David49

Way back in the 1960s there was no sex education at all, surprise, surprise most of us managed to navigate the dating and relationship challenges. 60 yrs later I see nothing that has changed for the better, in fact behavior and wellbeing has got considerably worse.
It was an ordinary state high school, there was never any sexual harassment of girls, now everything has to be sexualized from an early age - progress?.

There certainly was “sexual harassment” of girls, but it either wasn’t recognised as such, or not important enough or both!

Recognising and acknowledging gay rights, gay history and gay families is NOT sexualising it!

NotSpaghetti

*Grandma70s*.

I realise that although my children read whatever they fancied I did try to steer them away from what I considered "trash" childrens books and novels towards what I considered were better written ones. They still read Disney books and ones with odd messages - one grandchild had a book called "Rainbow Fish" which seems to imply we must all be the same.
Mercifully they didn't like Biggles!

Rainbow Fish is a lovely book, used extensively in infant classrooms. The message is not that everyone should be the same, but that sharing is good and ultimately makes us happier.
I speak as an ex infant teacher who used this book regularly because it was included in our Reception Year planned curriculum.

Lathyrus3

David49

Way back in the 1960s there was no sex education at all, surprise, surprise most of us managed to navigate the dating and relationship challenges. 60 yrs later I see nothing that has changed for the better, in fact behavior and wellbeing has got considerably worse.
It was an ordinary state high school, there was never any sexual harassment of girls, now everything has to be sexualized from an early age - progress?.

Wow, no sexual harassment of girls in schools (and everywhere else) in the 60s! Seriously????!

Three incidents from the 1960s spring to mind.

One was at a boarding school where a 14 year old girl used to sneak out of the dorm at night and meet one of the teachers in his car.

I have a personal memory of playing hockey at school while a collection of men gathered outside the railings at the bottom of the field, some with dogs, just gawping at us
in our divided skirts and muddy, red legs. If they struck lucky some girls would have forgotten their kit and be running around in big navy knickers. Not actual harassment I know but not exactly wholesome.

A group of boys at a mixed grammar school who compared notes on various girls at the school and rated them 1-10 under various sexual criteria. Their form master found out and thought it was hilarious so he encouraged them.

Finally not school based but a reminder that Mohamed Al Fayad and Jimmy Savile were both already active in the 1960s.

Sorry typos. London not Law neon 😬et al…….

Mine wasn’t and there was plenty of sexual harassment though not many would have called it that.

My experience of the 59s and sixties was that males were generally expected to try it on and females (the nice ones) were expected to reject their advances.

The trying it on in school mostly consisted of brushing up against you and coping a feel of of your breasts or bottom in passing. Or sexual comments.

Later workng as a teen in Law neon males masturbating as you walked past (on the Tube mostly) was so commn you hardly thought about it, as was the close brushing, moving against you if you had to stand on your journey. And again the trying it on.
It was all accepted as something males did and females had to handle.

Anyway, it’s a bit off topic, but I don’t think my school experience was at all unusual.

Cossy

Lathyrus3

I think if you take a look at Visit London website you might be reassured. I don’t know what people are imagining but it’s not very controversial unless you truly believe that any sexuality other than heterosexual is inherently wrong.

There are some good openers for discussion on display like the door of Oscar Wilde’s cell in Reading Gaol or Alan Turing’s contribution to victory in WW2 and his subsequent shaming.

The overall ethos is of acceptance of who a person is and acknowledgement of all that “Queer” people have contributed to society, whilst having to hide their sexuality. Perhaps there are a few surprises sitting there for many people.

In regard to the age group, 11/12 years old is when most children are experiencing puberty and becoming aware of sexual feelings. It’s also when bullying about sexuality starts to come to the fore.

I think the visit is well-timed and hopefully will lead to discussion, not just about sexuality, but about being perceived as being ”different” in all sorts of ways.

👏👏👏👏

I agree. When I saw this thread, it was Turing and the dreadful things that happened came to mind.

Hopefully never again. and how can we forget, in many parts of the world being gay leads to death?

My grandson is nearly 13 and his parents would be pleased (I've checked).

There's no ugly secret agenda going on here, just mind broadening, for one day, carefully selected venues, which allows understanding and acceptance of difference as part of the norm, in a society which still has people who are homophobic.

Lathyrus3

David49

Way back in the 1960s there was no sex education at all, surprise, surprise most of us managed to navigate the dating and relationship challenges. 60 yrs later I see nothing that has changed for the better, in fact behavior and wellbeing has got considerably worse.
It was an ordinary state high school, there was never any sexual harassment of girls, now everything has to be sexualized from an early age - progress?.

Wow, no sexual harassment of girls in schools (and everywhere else) in the 60s! Seriously????!

Not in my school there wasn't 😃

(It was an all girls' school though)

We learnt about the sex life of the frog.

We even drew a picture of a male frog's penis.

I was about 50 when I found out that frogs don't have this appendage

What our teacher was thinking I've no idea

nanna8

I had a bit of a laugh, David . You are so right. Our ‘sex education’ was the biological life of rabbits . The teacher told us humans were similar. That was it. My smart friend whispered that they were ‘at it’ all the time, weren’t they ?

Our school sex education in the 1950s was about rabbits, too. We liked to make the teacher blush by asking about human reproduction. We didn’t even get as far as being told humans were similar to rabbits! Luckily I had enlightened parents so I knew the ‘facts of life’.

Maddyone, I completely agree with you. Our son is gay had happily married. His nephews and nieces have not needed to have school trips to gay venues ! They have quite simply accepted. I worried years ago how my other AC would explain the situation to their children. However there was no need , they just grew up with it and accepted it. No need to make a song and dance about it! What is important is that children are taught to respect all differences in all people - whatever those differences are! People who are gay still have much to contend with although I recognize how much things have changed for the better since our 19 year old son told us .

I had a bit of a laugh, David . You are so right. Our ‘sex education’ was the biological life of rabbits . The teacher told us humans were similar. That was it. My smart friend whispered that they were ‘at it’ all the time, weren’t they ?

Don’t see why it’s part of the school curriculum. They should be concentrating on other things.