School trips have changed since my day…..

I remember one of my grandsons going to a River Thames museum, somewhere round Henley I think. Apparently it was really interesting, with lots of archaeology. Of course Covid put a stop to trips for a lot of his time at secondary school but he did get a trip to Auschwitz and a week skiing in Italy.

That’s okay Lathyrus3 it’s good to have my opinions challenged occasionally. Especially in a gracious way, such as you expressed. Thank you.

Yes the old ‘birds and the bees’ educations. The raging hormones. Too much growth spurts and energy. We all went through it. And truly, I’m no prude nor ‘pearl clutcher’.

I just think we bombarb youngish children nowadays with alternative viewpoints, diversity opinions etc. Sure they’ll get to know this soon enough but it’s almost as though education is proffering this and putting ideas into young heads too soon. Ooh have YOU thought you might like to explore this/feel this way/think about THIS?

I’m not entirely sure some of this is not promotion rather than just education and I truly believe Stonewall have a lot to answer for here.

Rainbow lanyards, gender identity books (in the library aimed at six year olds for goodness sake I noticed on Saturday went out with our 8 year old granddaughter).

Sorry, for me - its too much and yes, too soon. Let them be kids a little while longer. Some organisation is pushing this agenda and I’m not sure why. We all managed without it as part of our ‘sex education’. I’m sure today’s children could wait a little longer than this, without detriment psychologically.

Norah

I admit to being quite surprised, too.

Our GC went on ski trips and Disney trips - I'm pleased.

I’d be much more worried about Disney trips. I loathe Disney!

From what I know of my granddaughter, she will sail through this experience and be no more adversely affected by it than she is by knowing where babies come from. She is still a child, but an educated one.

There’s nothing wrong with learning about gay people, in a respectful way, at school. In fact it should be taught. The likelihood of children of this age knowing about families or couples who are gay is strong. The point is that a bookshop dedicated entirely to gay people is not age appropriate. Have the staff veted every book on the shelves for suitability? What exactly is the point of going to a bookshop dedicated entirely to books about or for gay people anyway? What are the children supposed to learn from such a shop? And what are they going to learn at the museum? The link shows mainly pictures of people who are supposedly gay. What are the learning objectives for such a trip? I should have thought that learning to respect everyone, whatever their sexuality or other difference is what is important here.

In addition, what of the millions of gay people who don’t want to be pictured in a museum like some sort of freak show. My son and his partner live very ordinary lives, wear very ordinary clothing, do not take part in any ‘gay’ events, and try to bring up their child in a very ordinary way. They couldn’t be more ordinary if they tried. They are part of our loving family. I don’t think they would want to be pictured in a museum as if they are freaks. They are not.

I was educated in Scotland and never went on a school trip throughout my education.

One of her uncles is gay, maddyone, so she knows how ordinary gay people are. I don’t think anyone is presenting them as freaks.

We had school visits to a cigarette factory, a banana importing place, a bread factory, a chocolate factory & several residential A level field trips. Latter resulted in pub visits each eve, smoking & drinking followed by messing around in the accommodation with the opp sex ! Back in late 60’s early 70’s. Schools wouldn’t get away with that now ! We did have fun even though risky at times.

This is becoming like a game of ‘I am The One in Ten’ 🎵 🎶

I don’t know that song🤔🙂

I actually agree with your comments about young children being bombarded with too much information too soon and that, in some cases, there has been promoting rather than educating. Too much information too soon jst leads to confusion - in anything, even for adults.

I guess where we differ mostly is in what we regard as age appropriate. I think there is a fair amount questioning, confusion and I’m afraid bullying that goes on at this age so we’ll agree to differ on that.

As far as the bookshop visit comments I haven’t been so don’t know if there is a vetted children’s section, but I do know the museum sent anything like a freak show.In fact I think that’s just exactly the concept that it challenges.

My daughter went on a school trip to Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

We went on a school trip to a power station and a margarine factory. We also went on a field trip to Yorkshire and it poured with rain the whole day so most of us sneaked back onto the coach and shared our pack lunches, I remember one boy had brought scotch eggs and I had never eaten one before, that was in fact the most exciting part of the trip.

A lovely post again from you Lathyrus3. Thank you again. We meet perhaps halfway in our viewpoints? Some consensus anyway.

(The song was by UB40 btw - quite catchy - about being the one gay in ten. 1980’s. Loved their songs).

I’d still like to know what the learning objectives are for such a visit.
And why being respectful of all people, regardless of any differences, is not taught in school.
As a matter of fact, I know that it is, because I used to be a teacher, so I’m still wondering what the learning objectives for this trip are.
I had to provide the learning objective for every lesson I taught, including for any school trips.

I visited Gay’s the Word as a (straight) librarian, many years ago now, to select books for the children’s and young adult sections of the library. The range of books showing eg same sex parents or young people discovering their identity as gay or lesbian, trans or bisexual, was very limited in the stocks of mainstream library suppliers at that time. The staff at the bookshop were welcoming, knowledgeable and immensely helpful.

I imagine the visit would have been fairly short and certainly age appropriate. The only worry I’d have is the antipathy to books and reading which a recent survey of children and young people highlighted. There are so many wonderful books!

So many good places to visit in the Uk, why this one ? Too political for me and I don’t think it would happen here. Certainly not through the Lutheran school my grandchildren attend.

Barleyfields
Probably not literature that their parents would prefer them to read at that age.

Well, I'm not a parent of a "soon to be teenager" these days but I'm sure there will be plenty of age appropriate literature to see there.

There will certainly be plenty of literature on the shelves of this bookshop.

Straight people are no more likely to write excellent books and not all excellent books will be about straight people.

The Color Purple, by Alice Walker
The Line of Beauty, by Alan Hollinghurst
Giovanni's Room, by James Baldwin
Middlesex, by Jeffrey Eugenides
Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit, by Jeanette Winterson
...these are all books I consider to be "literature"

There will lots more.
These are just the ones that immediately came to my mind.
I read Giovanni's Room as a young teen, also ^Death in Venice by Thomas Mann.

I wouldn’t dream of limiting the books that a twelve-year-old reads to those I might think are ‘suitable’. Let them explore. (I too read Giovanni’s Room as a young teenager.)

As for being ‘bombarded’ with too much information - I don’t think there is such a thing as too much information and knowledge. They are ‘bombarded’ with heterosexuality all the time, so I feel that a similar knowledge of homosexuality is just balance.

nanna8

So many good places to visit in the Uk, why this one ? Too political for me and I don’t think it would happen here. Certainly not through the Lutheran school my grandchildren attend.

Why not this one? They are London children, they have visited many interesting places. This is just one more.

I dont think I have any strong feelings about this either way, except perhaps that it somehow seems othering to me. All the books mentioned above will be in any bookshop in any town.
And of course the use of the word queer, which whilst reclaimed by some is seen by many others as hurtful.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I’m not against this day trip per se but I’m with escaped here.
Too much, too soon. Seems we push these things on kids nowadays. Can’t childhood, a game of football or netball just be enough for a little while longer? Why this rush into learning about alternative types of sexual behaviours all of a sudden?
12 years old?
Must be me that’s out of step.

I get exactly what you’re saying, however it’s not about “sexual behaviour” it’s so much more about the make up families.

These 12 year olds will learn about “sexual behaviour” in the playground.

It’s so important to learn tolerance and acceptance.

There are many many children now with same sex parents, no one wants to see these families singled out, it’s “normal”

Grandma70s

I wouldn’t dream of limiting the books that a twelve-year-old reads to those I might think are ‘suitable’. Let them explore. (I too read Giovanni’s Room as a young teenager.)

As for being ‘bombarded’ with too much information - I don’t think there is such a thing as too much information and knowledge. They are ‘bombarded’ with heterosexuality all the time, so I feel that a similar knowledge of homosexuality is just balance.

👏👏👏👏

NotSpaghetti

Barleyfields
Probably not literature that their parents would prefer them to read at that age.

Well, I'm not a parent of a "soon to be teenager" these days but I'm sure there will be plenty of age appropriate literature to see there.

There will certainly be plenty of literature on the shelves of this bookshop.

Straight people are no more likely to write excellent books and not all excellent books will be about straight people.

The Color Purple, by Alice Walker
The Line of Beauty, by Alan Hollinghurst
Giovanni's Room, by James Baldwin
Middlesex, by Jeffrey Eugenides
Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit, by Jeanette Winterson
...these are all books I consider to be "literature"

There will lots more.
These are just the ones that immediately came to my mind.
I read Giovanni's Room as a young teen, also ^Death in Venice by Thomas Mann.

👏👏👏

I think if I were still teaching a print out of this thread would provide an interesting starting point for a couple of lessons. As an English teacher use of the verb 'bombarded' would be worthy of discussion.

Lathyrus
I actually agree with your comments about young children being bombarded with too much information too soon and that, in some cases, there has been promoting rather than educating. Too much information too soon jst leads to confusion - in anything, even for adults.

With due respect, I could not disagree more. From a very young age I could never have too much information on anything. I was a sponge. My parents tried to keep somethings from me, but i always got round it.

Diversity wasn't an issue when I was young, butit was just after WW2 when many books were published on the horrors of the concentration camps. I read everyone that came my way, from a very young age. When we lived in Singapore, I was about 10, the local daily paper ran a long series of articles on the full horrors of the Japanese occupation of Malaya and the terrible things that were done to Prisoners of War on the Burma Railway. It was a game of cat and mouse with my parents, but I read everything.

More lightly I was reading adult hstoric novels from much the same way and one or two dealt with adultery and infidelity, and my mother tried to hide these, but I read them, and much of it went right over my head.

I never stopped my children reading or watchng anything, my son wanted to watch a schools programme showing a baby being born, when he was about 3. I sat with him ready to turn the tv off. He was just fascinated by it but I was always knew what they were reading and watching and would be with them when necessary. The only time either of them got upset was DS over a Noddy book, because a little monkey was put in prison for breaking rules he knew nothing about and that upset DS's sense of justice.