What does education mean?

There's plenty of schools, jobs, lifestyles where you don't have to be a machine and perform tasks to a prescribed pattern. Infact you are expected to set new paths.
As long as you conform to a common ethos, surely you can be as innovative as you like in your work.

Doesn’t your last paragraph rely on the particular job function David49? Also school leavers can have many years of training ahead of them, so learning on the job too. I think some jobs are much more complex than others - medicine, scientific research, engineering, architecture, accountancy, and IT all need complex core knowledge before the practitioner in that field is reduced to robotic status.

There’s so much research evidence about the benefits of life long learning of the type described here by many posters. The arts contribute hugely to the mental health of our nation.
Thank you, Iam64. It makes me sad when the Arts seem to be so hugely undervalued and dismissed as belonging to the domaine of the elite only.

I would say that the idea of innovation in work is specific to particular jobs, lots of jobs are boring, repetitive etc, however I would say for many children who dont fit into the structured approach of education ( possibly boys more than girls) education can feel like that as well.

There is something about the importance of permission to make mistakes in terms of ideas that I think is vital in education. My son had a lecturer who basically gave his students permission to explore a very very sensitive topic without fear of saying the wrong thing, it was amazing to watch how much that helped him to fly so to speak. He went on to do the topic for his dissertation.

ronib

Doesn’t your last paragraph rely on the particular job function David49? Also school leavers can have many years of training ahead of them, so learning on the job too. I think some jobs are much more complex than others - medicine, scientific research, engineering, architecture, accountancy, and IT all need complex core knowledge before the practitioner in that field is reduced to robotic status.

It's not just jobs such as those which need people who can think on their feet. I once went through an online test with somebody who was looking to work in a major supermarket. There was a whole series of questions about "what would you do if ..." Admittedly, they were multiple-choice, but the answers weren't always obvious. The supermarket chain was quite clearly looking for people who could follow procedure, but could also be flexible in unexpected situations. Somebody who had only ever be trained to be a robot would fail.

Galaxy

I would say that the idea of innovation in work is specific to particular jobs, lots of jobs are boring, repetitive etc, however I would say for many children who dont fit into the structured approach of education ( possibly boys more than girls) education can feel like that as well.

Do you mean education in schools?

Yes for some children it is boring, children who struggle to fit into the 'structure' of schooling, this isn't particularly a criticism of schools, but we all know children who did not find their school days fulfilling, stimulating, etc.

Even in the military, where you serve like a machine and have to obey to the letter, you also have to use your own initiative. Despite being ordered/trained to do something else, you'd have to break away, and be innovative, or you'd be dead.

I guess there's a fine balance to all the different layers.

David Did you ever visit Eastern Europe before the fall of communism? I had the opportunity to stay in East German twice and I know a number of people who come from the former East Germany, who have confirmed my impressions.

Generally, the population was cared for. People had homes and there was usually enough affordable food. Schools and good healthcare were free and there was no unemployment. Everybody was slotted into the system somewhere. People felt safe on the streets. East Germany was already more advanced industrially than other Communist bloc countries and was relatively wealthy compared with the others. You might think that sounds like a perfect society.

However, innovation and creative thinking wasn't encouraged because the state saw such behaviour as a threat. Classical music was encouraged by the state because it was stuck in a time warp and wasn't threatening. Pop music was seen as dangerous because it sometimes touched on social issues. Nevertheless, people wanted to listen to it and often tuned in (illegally) to radio or television from the West.

I've seen copies of the text books used in East Germany schools before reunification. History was just propaganda. That's why a healthy country needs people who can think critically.

It's no coincidence that Germany is politically still divided in two with the Eastern states voting for AfD. There are all sorts of reasons for that (which I won't go into here), but it should be remembered that many of the people who voted for AfD tend to be the more elderly, who were educated under the former Communist curriculum. As young people, they were told how to behave - to fit in with the state's aims - but not given opportunities for creative thinking.

Galaxy

Yes for some children it is boring, children who struggle to fit into the 'structure' of schooling, this isn't particularly a criticism of schools, but we all know children who did not find their school days fulfilling, stimulating, etc.

To be honest Galaxy, even I didn't enjoy secondary school and went off the rails. It certainly wasn't fulfilling or stimulating, but somehow I got my act together for exams and did well enough.

Schools provide only a small part of what I consider is education.

The more rational, mature person I am now sometimes kicks herself for all the wasted opportunities. I've come across many people who say the same.

If all people learnt in school was how to do boring repetitive tasks and submit to authority, where would innovation come from? The country would stand still if nobody had the knowledge to invent the next generation gizmo, or work out how to make grommets more cheaply or in more useful shapes. If nobody learnt how to play music or write novels (or produce tv programmes) we would all be reading the same books over and over, and watching repeats from the days when those things were encouraged. There would be no fashion, no food development, no advances in medicine. We could either sink back to a less advanced way of living or buy in expertise from countries who do educate their populations, and act as service workers for them.

You have a very limited understanding of education, David, not to mention a very limited grasp of much of ‘the world of work’. You seem to see both as homogeneous environments with no scope for development. A basic understanding of, say, history, psychology or sociology would show you that many intelligent people forced into repetitive work with no opportunity to change their lives become alienated and resentful. Society then has to choose between harsher policing/ government and finding more enlightened ways to prevent revolution. Presumably you would deny people the opportunity to study those things though, as they don’t have immediate and obvious application in what you see as ‘the world of work’?

I know what it isn't.... cramming facts down children's throats in order to do SATs.

Innovate at work? try doing that on a supermarket till or stacking shelves, or building house, you do the job exactly as you have been instructed.

Later in your career as a solicitor, or an accountant do you innovate, no, you get into serious trouble if you try to change the system. Many will have been teachers you teach the curriculum as it’s set you cant change it, you follow that schools policy, if you get to be head teacher then there are some thing you can influence but not many.

You have all been robots to the system as most employees are but you won’t admit it. If you are self employed you do have much more control.

In your personal life you can educate yourself as much as you want but your priority is still paying the rent, when you’ve achieved that improve your lifestyle.

But accountants and solicitors need to keep up with changes in legislation David49. From what I see, anyone working in uncharted areas can be quite stressed and can benefit from a lot of positive reinforcement when the going gets tough. I am thinking of scientific start ups who will sack their employees once a particular milestone has been achieved.

Wow Doodledog, I wish I could have written your last post as eloquently as you did.

Yes you have constantly changing regulations but you personally have no control over it you just to follow instructions.

If you enjoy the work thats great I have 2 daughters are self employed accountants, they love working with accounts and earn a lot of money from home.
The downside is clients that don’t produce the information on time

I'll just pick you up on one thing. I think the vast majority of people (not just those deemed "intelligent") forced into repetitive work with no opportunity to change their lives become alienated and resentful.

PS. Second thoughts ... maybe you meant that most people are intelligent (even if their intelligence isn't recognised).

David49

Yes you have constantly changing regulations but you personally have no control over it you just to follow instructions.

If you enjoy the work thats great I have 2 daughters are self employed accountants, they love working with accounts and earn a lot of money from home.
The downside is clients that don’t produce the information on time

So your daughters will have to use "soft skills" to coax the information from the clients and re-organise their own time, so they're getting on with something else until the information arrives. If they don't, they'll end up losing the clients.

Thank you, growstuff. That's very kind.

I fear we are all wasting our time though. Virtually nobody seems to have the same experience or opinion as David, which would give most people pause for thought, but he's not listening - just ignoring things he can't answer and repeating ideas about how 'the world of work' works on one employment model only.

Doodledog

Thank you, growstuff. That's very kind.

I fear we are all wasting our time though. Virtually nobody seems to have the same experience or opinion as David, which would give most people pause for thought, but he's not listening - just ignoring things he can't answer and repeating ideas about how 'the world of work' works on one employment model only.

Au contraire! I'm finding the discussion very interesting.

David49

Yes you have constantly changing regulations but you personally have no control over it you just to follow instructions.

If you enjoy the work thats great I have 2 daughters are self employed accountants, they love working with accounts and earn a lot of money from home.
The downside is clients that don’t produce the information on time

But what has this to do with education?

Are your daughters automatons who are simply following instructions? Whose instructions?

Presumably there are sanctions for people not producing information on time? Again, I'm not sure what that has to do with education, other than that by definition these people are not following instructions, or they would have the information with their accountant by the required date.

David49

Innovate at work? try doing that on a supermarket till or stacking shelves, or building house, you do the job exactly as you have been instructed.

Later in your career as a solicitor, or an accountant do you innovate, no, you get into serious trouble if you try to change the system. Many will have been teachers you teach the curriculum as it’s set you cant change it, you follow that schools policy, if you get to be head teacher then there are some thing you can influence but not many.

You have all been robots to the system as most employees are but you won’t admit it. If you are self employed you do have much more control.

In your personal life you can educate yourself as much as you want but your priority is still paying the rent, when you’ve achieved that improve your lifestyle.

Adhering to the 'system' of your particular field of work does not mean people have to turn into robots.

Innovate at work? try doing that on a supermarket till or stacking shelves
A till operator could carry out the job robotically, or they could be cheerful, pass the time of day with customers, make the experience for them and for the customer a more pleasant one.

Stacking shelves - yes, I have done that and having a robot to stack endless tins of dog food would have been preferable. However, often it is students or someone gaining experience who does that kind of job then they move on.

You are removing human nature and personality from the equation.

Doodledog Mon 02-Jun-25 08:36:32

Excellent post, Doodledog.

Allira I suspect shelf stacking might very well be a job of bygone years in the future. Amazon have already introduced warehouses controlled by robots.

That means that the remaining jobs are those which do need a "human touch", including flexibility and creativity. So much can already be done by AI and robots and that's the way the world of work is moving.

When I was doing teacher training many moons ago, I remember being told that we were preparing children for an unknown future. That's so true! In the early 1980s, nobody had heard of the internet, a scientific calculator was a rarity and accessing any kind of reprographics was like breaking into Fort Knox. People do jobs now which none of us had ever imagined.

Who would ever have imagined that people could click a couple of buttons on a smart phone (what's one of those?) and a pizza or taxi would arrive a few minutes later?