What does education mean?

Galaxy

Yes for some children it is boring, children who struggle to fit into the 'structure' of schooling, this isn't particularly a criticism of schools, but we all know children who did not find their school days fulfilling, stimulating, etc.

To be honest Galaxy, even I didn't enjoy secondary school and went off the rails. It certainly wasn't fulfilling or stimulating, but somehow I got my act together for exams and did well enough.

Schools provide only a small part of what I consider is education.

The more rational, mature person I am now sometimes kicks herself for all the wasted opportunities. I've come across many people who say the same.

David Did you ever visit Eastern Europe before the fall of communism? I had the opportunity to stay in East German twice and I know a number of people who come from the former East Germany, who have confirmed my impressions.

Generally, the population was cared for. People had homes and there was usually enough affordable food. Schools and good healthcare were free and there was no unemployment. Everybody was slotted into the system somewhere. People felt safe on the streets. East Germany was already more advanced industrially than other Communist bloc countries and was relatively wealthy compared with the others. You might think that sounds like a perfect society.

However, innovation and creative thinking wasn't encouraged because the state saw such behaviour as a threat. Classical music was encouraged by the state because it was stuck in a time warp and wasn't threatening. Pop music was seen as dangerous because it sometimes touched on social issues. Nevertheless, people wanted to listen to it and often tuned in (illegally) to radio or television from the West.

I've seen copies of the text books used in East Germany schools before reunification. History was just propaganda. That's why a healthy country needs people who can think critically.

It's no coincidence that Germany is politically still divided in two with the Eastern states voting for AfD. There are all sorts of reasons for that (which I won't go into here), but it should be remembered that many of the people who voted for AfD tend to be the more elderly, who were educated under the former Communist curriculum. As young people, they were told how to behave - to fit in with the state's aims - but not given opportunities for creative thinking.

Even in the military, where you serve like a machine and have to obey to the letter, you also have to use your own initiative. Despite being ordered/trained to do something else, you'd have to break away, and be innovative, or you'd be dead.

I guess there's a fine balance to all the different layers.

Yes for some children it is boring, children who struggle to fit into the 'structure' of schooling, this isn't particularly a criticism of schools, but we all know children who did not find their school days fulfilling, stimulating, etc.

Galaxy

I would say that the idea of innovation in work is specific to particular jobs, lots of jobs are boring, repetitive etc, however I would say for many children who dont fit into the structured approach of education ( possibly boys more than girls) education can feel like that as well.

Do you mean education in schools?

ronib

Doesn’t your last paragraph rely on the particular job function David49? Also school leavers can have many years of training ahead of them, so learning on the job too. I think some jobs are much more complex than others - medicine, scientific research, engineering, architecture, accountancy, and IT all need complex core knowledge before the practitioner in that field is reduced to robotic status.

It's not just jobs such as those which need people who can think on their feet. I once went through an online test with somebody who was looking to work in a major supermarket. There was a whole series of questions about "what would you do if ..." Admittedly, they were multiple-choice, but the answers weren't always obvious. The supermarket chain was quite clearly looking for people who could follow procedure, but could also be flexible in unexpected situations. Somebody who had only ever be trained to be a robot would fail.

There is something about the importance of permission to make mistakes in terms of ideas that I think is vital in education. My son had a lecturer who basically gave his students permission to explore a very very sensitive topic without fear of saying the wrong thing, it was amazing to watch how much that helped him to fly so to speak. He went on to do the topic for his dissertation.

I would say that the idea of innovation in work is specific to particular jobs, lots of jobs are boring, repetitive etc, however I would say for many children who dont fit into the structured approach of education ( possibly boys more than girls) education can feel like that as well.

There’s so much research evidence about the benefits of life long learning of the type described here by many posters. The arts contribute hugely to the mental health of our nation.
Thank you, Iam64. It makes me sad when the Arts seem to be so hugely undervalued and dismissed as belonging to the domaine of the elite only.

Doesn’t your last paragraph rely on the particular job function David49? Also school leavers can have many years of training ahead of them, so learning on the job too. I think some jobs are much more complex than others - medicine, scientific research, engineering, architecture, accountancy, and IT all need complex core knowledge before the practitioner in that field is reduced to robotic status.

There's plenty of schools, jobs, lifestyles where you don't have to be a machine and perform tasks to a prescribed pattern. Infact you are expected to set new paths.
As long as you conform to a common ethos, surely you can be as innovative as you like in your work.

David49, your views on education are flat, cold and lacking in any understanding that all people need more than the ability to pay the rent and put food on the table. Your suggestion that aristocrats get involved in the arts to suit their social circle misses the point by a mile.
There’s so much research evidence about the benefits of life long learning of the type described here by many posters. The arts contribute hugely to the mental health of our nation.

growstuff

David49

If you think education is the discovery of new things and new experiences that’s a problem. When you start the world of work that ends because you are entering an existing system that doesn’t change, repeating the same tasks day by day, until you complete more training and get promoted.

School is a combination of education and training maths, english, science could be termed training, history, geography, literature largely education

Quite frankly, that post shows that you really don't understand what education is about. It isn't all about preparing robots to work for employers.

If humans really were robots and had no capacity for creative thinking, humanity would be static and evidence shows us that it isn't.

Your categorisation of school subjects into two groups training and education is laughable.

The part you don’t understand is that changing from an education environment where you are discovering new experiences day by day to a work environment.

That’s a big leap because you are expected to be a robot following instructions and probably will be boring, that’s why some school leavers find it so difficult

David49

If you think education is the discovery of new things and new experiences that’s a problem. When you start the world of work that ends because you are entering an existing system that doesn’t change, repeating the same tasks day by day, until you complete more training and get promoted.

School is a combination of education and training maths, english, science could be termed training, history, geography, literature largely education

Quite frankly, that post shows that you really don't understand what education is about. It isn't all about preparing robots to work for employers.

If humans really were robots and had no capacity for creative thinking, humanity would be static and evidence shows us that it isn't.

Your categorisation of school subjects into two groups training and education is laughable.

If you think education is the discovery of new things and new experiences that’s a problem. When you start the world of work that ends because you are entering an existing system that doesn’t change, repeating the same tasks day by day, until you complete more training and get promoted.

School is a combination of education and training maths, english, science could be termed training, history, geography, literature largely education

(Sorry Ziplok. I accidentally used the Italian spelling of your name.)

Ziploc brought us closer to the answer of the OP question:

Q. What does education mean?

A. Life.

I spent about 6 months of my life pondering this when I undertook teacher training. Part of the course. They stressed it is not training, it is not rote learning but a wider thing that covers the whole of life and spills over into just about everything we think and do. I think they were right.

Thank you Ziplok. It's up to posters what they discuss, but you described my intention when I started the thread.

In a nutshell -

Learning the basics for the world of work is not the be-all and the end-all of education
With a good education the world is my oyster
We need people with vision for a brave new world
Because ignorance is the curse of God; knowledge is the wing wherewith we fly to heaven.

Macadia

Ziplok

I would add, education is not down to a privileged lifestyle, either. Every single one of us has an opportunity to keep learning/discovering new things - life is a learning curve, surely?

In some countries, formal education is a privelege. Let's not forget that and the hard work of people who work to change that.

I don’t dispute that in some countries, formal education is a privilege, nor do I forget that a lot of hard work has been done and continues to be done to enable formal education be accessible to all, so please don’t assume I’m ignorant of this fact. However, my understanding is that the OP was wanting us to discuss what we think education means overall, and so my view is that the education we as individuals acquire throughout our life is not just dependent upon having a privileged lifestyle or attending educational establishments beyond the compulsory (in this country) secondary level - we are all capable of becoming educated in so many ways whatever our ‘social’ status might be, whether we have a privileged lifestyle or a less privileged one, whether we have attended tertiary educational establishments or not.

I’m not talking about purely ‘formal’ education, rather I’m talking about education we acquire throughout our lives which we gain from many sources, not just necessarily from attending formal educational establishments. We learn things from each other, from watching tv and other media, from reading, from going about our everyday lives and interacting with others, from our lives at work and so on. Someone always brings a nugget of knowledge that we ourselves may not have known beforehand. Life is an education.

David49

“We should not be just churning out workers, we should be broadening children's horizons. Some children live in homes without a book.”

Quite right they don’t but they all have devices where information is instantly available, they have far more access to knowledge than we ever did, if the use it constructively

Elsewhere you spoke of education that included more than enable them to fulfill their "main need which is paying the rent and feeding the family" as being ^"great if you enjoy history, Shakespeare, travel, sport or any other activity but that is incidental to your main need"

You are showing that despite all the many posts on this thread which describe the several purposes of education you still don't understand the one which is explained to wouldbe teachers at the start of their first term.

A country (or its people) who know nothing of their history is doomed to repeat it. Someone may have a device with all the kmowledge in the world in their hand, to be accessed at the touch of a finger, but they also have all the false information, the invented evidence to "prove" the efficacy of a profitable snake-oil, the deepfakes, the scams, the paranoia of a deranged celebrity, the prejudices and hatred of every person who can type their worst thoughts directly into their device without a filter. If they don't know how to assess whether what they read is true or has been distorted to cheat them they going to be conned into buying rubbish because they didn't read the small print, are going to vote for the candidate who promises to achieve what is obviously impossible without doubling the cost of essential foods, are going to send all their savings to a plausible online stranger.

Allira

Ziplok

I would add, education is not down to a privileged lifestyle, either. Every single one of us has an opportunity to keep learning/discovering new things - life is a learning curve, surely?

Learning how to drive is a case in point.

We learn how to drive the car but learning about road conditions, anticipating what other drivers might do, is a learning curve.

Adding to that - U3A is an example of learning new things even in older age.

I'm glad you mentioned U3A, which is a perfect example of people learning for the sake of it.

David49

I think savvy employers can spot people with potential,

I can pick out who is going to make his mark in business, you see the Dragons doing that on TV, their product is not going to be useful but they are.

Doesnt matter wether they are 18 or 30 they are different, much more confident, so far 4 of my GC have been to Uni, 2 did well but no graduate jobs yet. I also have an 18 yr old mature far beyond his years he is going to be the highflier. He left grammar school at 16 straight to technical college, not interested in Uni, his sister is smart too, will get top grades.

My son does some quite complicated statistics and writing of reports based on the results. I've seen some of the work he does and I doubt if anybody without Maths A level could do it, no matter how intelligent or well-motivated. His Masters included specific training in report-writing and public policy. His area is housing and he did work experience as part of the degree in the Welsh government. His education has all came together to provide him with something an employer wanted. It possibly helped that his father is a property developer and he's been brought up surrounded by housing law. I've taught many bright 16 year olds, but never came across one who could do the work my son does.

Ziplok

I would add, education is not down to a privileged lifestyle, either. Every single one of us has an opportunity to keep learning/discovering new things - life is a learning curve, surely?

Learning how to drive is a case in point.

We learn how to drive the car but learning about road conditions, anticipating what other drivers might do, is a learning curve.

Adding to that - U3A is an example of learning new things even in older age.