Grammar schools - 1960s/1970s

CariadAgain

There's so much information coming out on here of just what a mixed bag there was from area to area and this is another part of it. Goodness knows how many people (especially women) are out there knowing they should have had better than they did - but school unfairness, problem parents, teachers who didn't tell boys to "pipe down and give a girl a chance to speak up", etc.

I've certainly had several women say to me over the years that they weren't allowed to take up a grammar school place they had been given too - by their own parents treating them that way. I'm thinking of a woman I know locally who has told me "Our parents let the boys go there - and I should have gone too - but they wouldnt let me" and she's a couple of years older than me and it's still rankling after all these years. Admits I then notice her husband again and wonder if she'd have got a better husband too if she'd not been prevented from going to grammar school.

I'm surprised at so many girls not being allowed to go to grammar schools. I grew up in an inner city area in the 50/60s. It was a notorious area, we featured in the News of the World on a fairly regular basis. Most of us were the children if immigrants, Catholic school and predominantly Irish, Polish and Italian. I do remember a couple of Spanish families and some Greek Orthodox. In my last year in Primary school I was in a class if 48 and 23 of us went to grammar school. I don't remember anyone turning down a place and trust me there were some very poor families.

I love that auto correct turned my primary school into a Primark school

There's so much information coming out on here of just what a mixed bag there was from area to area and this is another part of it. Goodness knows how many people (especially women) are out there knowing they should have had better than they did - but school unfairness, problem parents, teachers who didn't tell boys to "pipe down and give a girl a chance to speak up", etc.

I've certainly had several women say to me over the years that they weren't allowed to take up a grammar school place they had been given too - by their own parents treating them that way. I'm thinking of a woman I know locally who has told me "Our parents let the boys go there - and I should have gone too - but they wouldnt let me" and she's a couple of years older than me and it's still rankling after all these years. Admits I then notice her husband again and wonder if she'd have got a better husband too if she'd not been prevented from going to grammar school.

The 11 plus/grammar school selection system was very unfair. The number of grammar places available varied from one local authority area to another. If you lived in an area well provided with grammar school places s you had a much better chance of getting a place.

Iam64

I don’t recall the research finding bullying the issue but might be wrong, the research showed in single sex schools, girls achieved better in maths and science subjects

From what I recall, the research showed not bullying, but that boys dominated the classroom, demanded more of the teachers attention behaviour wise and were more confident in putting themselves forward, answering questions etc. Girls, almost without exception, would give way to boys.

This led teachers to underestimate girls’ ability and understanding, particularly in more traditional ‘male’ subjects such as Maths and Sciences.

Girls performance in written exams significantly exceeded teachers assessments of them in most subjects.

This was some time ago. I hope that, if the same research was carried out now it would look very different.

Allira

Iam64

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

If a girl is bullied by a boy and consequently misses days and days of school, her educational outcome will not be good.

Bullying can be from either sex.

Again - I'm struggling with my largely blocked-out memories that existed until mid-teenage/my father leaving the Forces - but, from what I can manage to recall, only one of the bullies during my secondary schooling was a boy and the rest were girls. I remember his surname was Brakespeare - but I can't recall anything of the names of the b*tches.

I learnt to head towards mixed groups and the more intelligent people as being the safest bet for company for me personally.

I don’t recall the research finding bullying the issue but might be wrong, the research showed in single sex schools, girls achieved better in maths and science subjects

Iam64

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

If a girl is bullied by a boy and consequently misses days and days of school, her educational outcome will not be good.

Iam64

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

I thought my school and the boys school nextdoor was a great compromise. Girls in lessons, mixing with the boys at lunchtime in the canteen and on the field plus the joint drama productions and sixth form. Best of both worlds.

Easy when it became a comp, they just knocked the walls through on the corridors.

My husband's school was much newer but followed the same design.

Girls do better academically in single sex schools. On balance I think mixed schools are probably better in long term outcomes

Girls do better in single sex schools. Why did that stop, that is where girls have lost out.

watermeadow

I always knew that boys passed with a lower mark than girls and that this was because girls at 10 or 11 are way ahead of the boys. The difference evens out later.
More boys than girls are very clever and more are less able.

Is there any proof anywhere for either of those positions?

theworriedwell

Geordiegirl1

Post war there were more girls born than boys. They were also doing ‘better’ academically at that age and the fear was that there would be significantly more girls in the grammar schools than boys. Social engineering at its finest!

Most grammar schools were single sex, if more girls were chasing the same number of places then the qualifying mark will be higher. That's just maths.

I can follow the logic they used to argue on that.

But it would have surely been so easy to make all grammar schools for both sexes - ie the same as some (including mine) were. Easy-peasy then - just a case of the top x% got in - ie to match the number of unisex places (regardless of sex). Job done.

All they'd have had to do is keep existing classes as they were - but combine them all (and split over the different grammar schools) from that point onwards. Easy-peasy - and year by year the (newly combined) schools would just have "places" and not boys places and girls places.

"Thats just maths" sounds like a phrase they used to justify treating some girls badly and robbing them of their places in advance.

I always knew that boys passed with a lower mark than girls and that this was because girls at 10 or 11 are way ahead of the boys. The difference evens out later.
More boys than girls are very clever and more are less able.

Geordiegirl1

Post war there were more girls born than boys. They were also doing ‘better’ academically at that age and the fear was that there would be significantly more girls in the grammar schools than boys. Social engineering at its finest!

Most grammar schools were single sex, if more girls were chasing the same number of places then the qualifying mark will be higher. That's just maths.

Post war there were more girls born than boys. They were also doing ‘better’ academically at that age and the fear was that there would be significantly more girls in the grammar schools than boys. Social engineering at its finest!

Certainly wondering now how many people did worse/are aware they did worse because of being sent to the "wrong school" or similar.

I know my father never ever forgot his scholarship he wasn't allowed to take - as he put it "I used to stand in for the teacher sometimes in classes and help others with their homework and the headmaster came begging on the doorstep for me to be allowed to continue my education - but I knew my parents couldnt afford it (because they had had all those children - ie his multiple brothers and sisters)".

I could see just how frustrated he got when officers in the armed forces were clearly less intelligent than him - but they were telling him what to do. Cue for he may have been armed forces - but he did "argue back" when he got denied his promotion three times in a row before he got it and he did "question and win" at that point and it was a case of "Gawd help them" when they made him largely deaf with their heavy guns - but he noticed the officers were wearing ear protection they weren't being given - and he probably cost them rather a lot of money by the time he went for them about it and then helped all his mates to do the same......and also get extra pension...

In my city no one talked about passing or failing the 11 plus. It was just you get to select from this list of schools or that list. No bid deal, no preparation, just part of a process.

The tricky thing was putting your choice of schools in a sensible order, as an example when my son was on the grammar school choice list his friends mother told me she was picking the same school as me for her first choice, her second choice was the most competitive school. I asked her if she thought he'd get into that school if he didn't get into the first choice. She thought for a minute and said it hadn't occurred to her that it was a wasted choice and changed it.

Lots to think about with these things.

One thing that sticks in my mind from Grammar School was that we were told quite regularly that we were stupid, thick, with brains like sieves. These were girls in the top streams of a Grammar school. It was quite demoralising and we believed it.

Presumably we were told this so that we did not get 'above ourselves' or become conceited. It was not good for self-confidence.

Geordiegirl1

In many areas, rhere were two ‘parts’ to the 11+ examination. The first part was the actual exam and the second was a further selection process, often held at the grammar school itself. Following this, the figures were ‘fiddled’ because not enough boys were making the grade. This appalling piece of social engineering sent a cohort of kids to Sec Mod and let me tell people on here who are disparaging them, we had a great education, took the Oxford GCE exams to O Level and I then went to the (horrible, ghastly ) grammar school to meet up with my year group again in the Lower V1, where I took three A Levels and went on to train as a teacher. Others in the form at Dec Mod went on to do great things.

It is a surprise to me all round just how different things were in different parts of the country - I guess we all assume that the way things were for us in our part of the country was standard across the country. My very patchy memory until mid-teens doesn't tell me whether there was a further selection process or no and, if so, what it would have consisted of. Maybe that was what happened to me? - ie where even my mother stepped in and said I must have my pass I'd got. I learnt that no-one could ever get anything past my mother without her realising - and she was the "decider" in their marriage (unfortunately for me) - but my father would have had his say that "If she has a pass = then she must be given it and not have it grabbed from under her nose" because of his own experience of family poverty meaning he couldnt continue his education.

I guess people are going to speak from their own experience personally of what they had and the only negative thing I can say about the grammar school I had was that they didn't stop the bullies I was plagued with until they all left at 16 (though maybe they weren't aware I was having that problem - as I don't think it ever occurred to me to tell them and it was my parents job to notice and to have them dealt with - and they did fail me on that front. The teachers were all fine, as far as my limited memory then tells me, and I was someone that "made friends" with them often and in latter days recall things like being a regular babysitter for one of them.

Grammar Schools in our area were single sex, having been co-ed pre WW11. We were not told our pass mark ,just pass or fail. We were given a list of the schools and had to list them in order of preference. There were 2 Catholic GS and 4 Council schools I chose my school because a friend used to take me to Saturday morning hockey games when I would be put in a school uniform and adopted as a mascot. I never did get to play hockey for my school. Our Headteacher tried to bring us up as “ladies” but we had to understand that it gave us an advantage, that we could do any job we wanted. No hiding behind “I’m just a girl” It worked, as we realized from the speakers at our OG dinners. I often wonder what she would think of my being a “Fellow” I started GS in 1955

Allira as I said earlier the single sex schools were supposed to be better for girls, mixed better for boys.

I think my school set up was good with semi detached boys and girls grammar, shared playing fields,canteens and sixth forms. We also did joint drama productions but girls able to study without having to put up with any boy led disruption.

My husband went to a grammar school about a mile from mine with an almost identical set up except their canteens were separate.

The 11 plus was just sprung on us without prior warning one day. We had been doing a lot of these unfamiliar tests in a booklet form but weren’t told categorically what it was all about. This was in 1972

It was the dying days of the 11 plus exam though and from our last primary school teacher we gleaned that he personally did not agree with it at all (without actually saying)

I am guessing the primary school chose NOT to “talk it up” as they say.
Within the year it was all ended in this area and they were all rapidly integrated with each other. …for good or for bad..

All the main fuss was in any event focussed on the posh uniforms worn for the grammar schools velour hats for girls caps for boys etc. All that expense😯 so exciting though at the time.

Jaxjacky

I went to a single sex grammar school after passing the 11+, the boys grammar was a few miles away, my parents took my best friend and me out for a meal after passing. I didn’t go to university.

I'm beginning to think that single sex schools are a good idea. We were friends with the boys from the Grammsr school and met up outside school to play tennis, social activities etc.
Seeing the bullying carried out by boys and endured by girls now in mixed comprehensive schools makes me think separating them for educational purposes suits girls better.
I could weep with anger at some of the bullying I hear about.

This appalling piece of social engineering sent a cohort of kids to Sec Mod and let me tell people on here who are disparaging them, we had a great education, took the Oxford GCE exams to O Level
Yes, I posted earlier that the two single-sex Secondary Modern schools in our town were very good. Some of my friends from primary school went there and we were upset at being split up. The ones I know did very well and many of us met up again at FE college. Many of us from the High School went there at 16, partly because we disliked the High School and its lack of career advice; they just wanted to produce more teachers.

I went to a single sex grammar school after passing the 11+, the boys grammar was a few miles away, my parents took my best friend and me out for a meal after passing. I didn’t go to university.